PIPs Aren't the End of the World

A Performance Improvement Plan (PIP) can feel like a career death sentence.

For a lot of people, getting put on a PIP feels deeply personal. It can hit your confidence, make you question your future, and leave you wondering whether you are already halfway out the door.

In this episode, Ryan and Erny talk about PIPs from both sides.

Ryan shares what it was like to be put on a PIP himself, including how hard it hit when it felt personal instead of productive. Erny talks about how leaders should approach performance issues before they ever get to that point, and why no employee should be blindsided by critical feedback at evaluation time.

They also get into:

• when a PIP is being used the right way
• when it starts to feel weaponized
• why accountability matters
• how leaders can communicate clearly and empathetically
• and why a PIP does not automatically mean your career is over

This episode is for leaders who want to handle performance issues better, and for employees who need the reminder that one hard moment does not define the rest of their career.

A PIP may be a setback, but it does not have to be the end.

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Leading Ain't Easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, Ernie Effley, founder of Bus Pro Network, as we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't, the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy. And how a lot of people sometimes you get you get put on a pip and you feel like your career's over. So we want to talk about our experience with uh receiving and uh and distributing.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Yeah, so uh for for our second episode in the row, we have just a a very positive topic. Hey, we're positive guys, yeah, yeah. So um I I think when people think of pips, it automatically it feels negative because it there is a a bit of a negative connotation to it because uh I mean something's not going according to plan, right? Um, and so I was just telling Ryan before the we hit record on this episode is uh personally, I've never been put on a pip. I have uh approached it. I don't and and let's I just want to be clear the reason I haven't been put on a pip is because uh most of the time it just went straight to firing or other such discipline. I don't want to sit here and act like I'm perfect. Um, and I don't even know that the concept of a pip was at any place of my employment until maybe 10, 11 years ago. And at that point I had been fired twice and had sort of been reformed uh through those those firings. Actually, I was only I've only been fired once, but I mean officially. Well, let's talk about the pip. Why are we talking about me getting fired, Ryan? What are you getting me into today? I don't know why we're talking about you getting fired. I'm about to fire you from the show. Twice. There we go.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

You heard it here for first here, folks. No, I just uh I I the reason I I was talking about or at least chatting with Ernie about the pip is I I have a friend that recently went through uh uh it was like six months of positive input on on work, and she thought she was doing well. And then it came to her annual review where she hadn't really had any feedback in terms of performance that that there was any indication whatsoever that something was off. Then has her annual review gets blasted with you know, we've seen received complaints here on work product, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here's a performance improvement plan. And it just it was something that completely blindsided her. For me, it's like I I relate to it because I got put on a on a pip when I was at at waste management by uh the supervisor that I that I had uh before I became a route manager was um this guy who he was either a couple months older than me or a couple months younger. And there was no indication that a pip was coming there either. But like I mentioned before, I was the you know, somebody that is vocal in trying to improve things and and push back. And the pip was more, I don't know, it was it was like did it feel returning related more than than than performance related, and it was just something that like I personally took it it hard, you know, and I I was I was younger and I like you know I uh overreacted in the moment. I'm like, this is bullshit, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Like I pulled him off, you know, and he could have fired me right there if he wanted to, but did did it did it feel like an act of retaliation for speaking up and for pushing back on people?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

It kind of did. And it was like, I don't know how to explain it. It was just it it felt personal. Like I if if I was put on a pip for you know, performance to where I I knew that there was an issue and I was failing to improve, and it was like, okay, well, we've talked about this multiple times. Here this is, we're gonna get this corrected one way or another. Like you're either not gonna be here or you know, the other thing. But I don't know. It's it's just it felt like such a personal pip that I did not react well to it. And uh I mean, I didn't stay on it for long. I mean, I I I got the things fixed that needed to be fixed, and it it wasn't necessarily a a bad thing. Like it, I want to say I I don't it wasn't even eye-opening. It was just, it's like, okay, there's an issue here that hasn't been discussed, so it felt premature to have that pip that is now going to be in my permanent record. And that is like the issue that I had with it on top of it feeling like uh an attack on my person rather than my profession. I don't know. Yeah, I I I struggled with it. And from that point, I always wanted to make sure that when I had to, you know, go the pip route for others, that it was used as a tool for improvement rather than what felt like a personal attack or a step to get somebody out the door.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Yeah, it it in the two examples you've given, it almost seems like, again, from a third-person perspective, is that management failed to be proactive in their communication in both in terms of what's expected of you and and the the example you gave of this this young lady who's who who got hit out of nowhere. Um, I went through some uh professional development about a year ago that really sort of revolutionized how I approach as a uh as a leader of a team, um, both uh improvement plans and in terms of progressive discipline and and even uh keeping open lines of communication. The the proctor or the the the person who was facilitating this this professional development said if if if your team is surprised at the evaluation stage of anything that is less than positive, then you failed as a manager in your communication skill to improve. And I always uh up until that point was was like, oh, you know what, this isn't uh something that maybe warrants a documented conversation or progressive discipline, but we'll just it'll come up in the annual evaluation. And and I knew going into it, like, oh, this is something that happened six months ago, but I'm gonna approach it, you know, uh now that the annual eval is is due. And I always got and of like you said, I didn't realize that I was putting as as a leader, I was putting my team in this position to feel blindsided by this thing, you know, in their mind and in in reality, this is some this happened months ago, man. We're already past that. Why are you bringing it up now? And in my mind, I'm like, well, it's your annual evaluation, right? Getting my my my thinking turned around as a leader is uh being more proactive with communications and also giving them this the heads up. I've I've now begun to practice that if um if Ryan, I'm bringing you in my office today because yesterday you failed to show up on time. And um, this is a pattern. I've I'm not, I don't have the record in front of me, but more than once I've observed you coming in 15, 20 minutes late, and that's causing a dip in service, right? Having that whole conversation up front saying, I want to have a conversation with you off the record before it gets to a point where I have to issue official expectations, right? That's our sort of first step in our progressive discipline sort of mantra.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Why the expert about this? Because John Flanagan shows up late every day and you don't talk to him because he's your buddy, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Well, you're not well, you're not privy to those conversations. They are happening. I am following up accordingly, however, and I'm not going to sit here and specify what I'm how I manage John Flanagan because that's not that's neither here nor there. I am following up on it, but I'm not gonna give you details of that conversation, just like I'm not gonna go to John Flanagan and give him details of the conversation we're having today. Both of them are between you and I. Whether you want to go out and share is up to you, but today that's that's what we're talking about. So badly. Thank you. Back on point is we need you to show up on time. I don't want to take this, escalate this any further. So if you could show up on time, that'd be fantastic. If not, I understand traffic, dog ate your homework, whatever excuse you want to throw in there. I understand these things happen. Give me a heads up if you're gonna be late. It's not okay to do it every day just because you're sending me a text every day now that I you're gonna be 15 minutes late, you still need to be on time. But um, is if if there's things that are circumstances out of your control, give me a heads up. Right. And that's just the quick little like role-play scenario with with someone being late. However, in that, even in that offline conversation, right? This doesn't get followed up in an email. This is just a complete one-on-one talk that we're having today. And if this continues, I'm going to, this will be documented either in the form of an expectations letter or on your evaluation form. So being completely up front with them and being open with the employee at that first contact, that first, hey, something's wrong here. We got to address this. That's gonna save you a lot of of potentially situations like that you found yourself in or that other uh your your example that you gave earlier.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

So you're you're in a union environment. So you obviously have what you can and can't do, and you have your progressive discipline steps. Is is a pip part of that progressive discipline that you just haven't reached yet, or is it not something that that exists for you? It it exists. Um, they don't call it a pip.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

I'm I'm forgetting. Well, you've clearly never had to go there because no, and most of the time, and and I want to be careful because I again I don't want to bring up examples that can uh that that that can cross the line of what I'm about to speak. But I well, that's where my mind immediately goes, right? So like so if d if I'm pausing, I'm trying to come up with a uh a way to word it. So most of the time, the and I have stats to prove this. I've shown this to our labor partners um when these things, these conversations come up at our our our um quarterly check-ins that we have with with our our union leadership at the different uh um uh bargaining groups, because I have two bargaining groups that that um that represent the employees that are on my team. And what I'll what I'll in because you know, these things do come up in those meetings, like, hey, this discipline, where are we at with this, this sort of things, just to check in again, those specifics. But I've prepared I prepared a a data-driven uh spreadsheet that I sh put that I kind of shared in in the form of a uh what are those called slideshow? I'm forgetting the name. Sorry, I'm sitting on PowerPoint? PowerPoint, thank you, Ryan. I need you in my life, you know, because sometimes I'll get going on things and my mind will just all of a sudden sit down on PowerPoint for whatever reason. Um, but anyway, I'll I'll I'll put it up on a PowerPoint saying, hey, out of I'll just use 10, I'll use a base 10 system, uh, out of the 10 uh instances where we've had to have a documented conversation that that was the beginning of progressive discipline. 80% of 80, 85%, I think we were at 85% of the time, that works. We don't, the next step isn't, we don't get there. And if we do, the percentages even go higher. If we have a an oral warning or an oral um um oral warning that is documented or a written reprimand, for right? Then then then the percentages even go higher. It's in the high 90s of of that really fixed it. So we a lot of times we don't get to pips. And sometimes if there I do have to throw this in there, there is the um sort of oddball and and uh situation where the offense was so egregious that we just have to move straight to dismissal. And yeah, that you know, and so uh in my experience, the pip has been sort of the unexplored middle ground. Um we've we've we've I've come in I've come close, I've actually put the pip together, and then the employee either um is no longer part of my team and transfers out, or they do something that accelerates right straight to dismissal. Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Yeah. Nah, I uh I don't know, you you you talked before about how uh a pip can carry a a negative connotation. Oh yeah. And I don't I don't disagree because I I've seen it to where pips can be kind of uh weaponized in a way where it's like you know, you're frustrated with me, you can't fire me yet because you don't feel like you have justifiable reasoning. Well, I mean, you're in a union environment, so obviously everything is dictated for you. But outside of a union environment, a lot of times I've seen it weaponized in the sense that, yes, we're at will, so yes, you can get fired at any time, but you usually want to have some type of justification or backup for doing so, right? And uh a pip can be a starting point to go down that path. Um, like for me, like I said, it felt very, very personal and I took it personally. And uh I lashed back in a way that that could have accelerated me to termination. Uh luckily it didn't, and I was there for several more years and things were fine. But um, the the person that I was talking about that that was kind of blindsided in a different way, where it was attacking her her performance when there was no mention of any type of of negative uh you know performance at all leading up to that point. It was it was very uh tough on on her because talking to her, it was like kind of a hit to her confidence, but it was also it's like, okay, now I have this thing where I'm gonna be fired soon. And I'm like, well, you're not necessarily gonna be fired soon, right? And it was it was kind of a uh a back and forth and and trying to to help her, you know, not take it like, oh, you know, the sky is falling, I better, you know, jump ship and find something else. It's like, yes, you absolutely can, right? And if you if you no longer feel safe and comfortable in in that work, find it, find a different environment and and you know, go succeed. But it doesn't have to be a negative. You can embrace, okay, that this is what's they're saying, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And take it as, okay, leadership failed me because none of this was mentioned previously, right? And then just take what you can, like truly look at yourself. Did I give everything that that I could have? Was I really struggling in these areas despite them not telling me? And do a real self-evaluation. And if it if it's true, like, no, everything listed here is complete BS. Now I feel targeted, sure. Go somewhere else and and and succeed. If there is any truth to it, be honest with yourself and and you know, attack those, those points.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yeah. So one thing that that you mentioned that that got my mind rolling here is whether or not you agree with the assessment of how you got here as an employee on the pip. Um the the heart of the matter here is that the pip's gonna give you the tools to succeed. It should if it's done right now. If it I'm not I don't want to throw this out there as a blanket statement, because obviously there's some in there that you know uh that are that are that are unfounded. But if there truly is, and and we use the the example of being late, if you're truly late all the time, be honest with yourself. Get there five minutes earlier, right? And and we're using that as as a as a and that might feel a little lame, but um maybe maybe your performance. Maybe you say, okay, I am doing the best I can in the eight hours I'm here a day. If my performance is truly lacking, give me some professional development as an employee that's gonna help me succeed because I very much need this job. I want to be here. I I need help to improve. And and it within the improvement plan should be the tools to succeed, right? If it's again, if it's constructed properly and you got at management that really is coming from an approach to improve the the performance instead of this is a step I gotta take in order to, you know, get get this guy to kick rocks. And and I get go ahead, sorry. No, no, no. I well, I was just gonna go into some advice for for the leaders in the room who are who are listening, um, in addition to and and give them some some tools and things that have been successful for me as as a leader. But if there was something that you wanted to throw in there before we move that way, we can't.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

No, I was just gonna share. So I've I've only had to to give two pips in in my career. And one was it was like after repeated discussion on particular topics that I I've told you before, like the way that I view management and and people not responding to uh feedback and areas of for improvement is there's either a a capacity issue or a lack of care, right? And if it's if it's a a capacity thing, I I try to avoid the progressive discipline, like I'll talk about it, but I'll find something that is a better fit for that person so they can succeed, right? But if it's a lack of care, that's where I take issue with it because it's like you are capable, you can absolutely do this, and for whatever reason you're choosing not to. And I did have to do a a pip in that regard one time because it it became a formal piece of documentation, right? And it was more prescriptive in these are the things that you have to do. Like it's no longer me asking you and you not complying. It's like you're you're you have to do this now. Like you either comply and get on board or sign an aura, you know, and the other one that I that I gave, it was I I think I talked about it before on a on a prior episode, but it was somebody that wasn't even my employee that was facing termination. And I volunteered to ownership to take her and get her on a pip and help her because I had seen the way that she was being managed by the supervisor that she was under and was set up for failure, right? And that one, it it was it was just a a tool that really helped her turn things around. And I think any anytime somebody gets put on a pip, there's some level of of personalization, right? And and you take it to heart because most people have a sense of pride in in the work product that they do. So when that gets more or less shit on, it it's like it can feel like a personal attack. And that's what I was talking about and being able to try and separate the emotion from it, which I obviously did not do when I received mine. Um, but when I was able to take a step back and and apply a different perspective to it, I guess I could say, okay, this area is something that that I should work on. Like the delivery of the pip coming out of nowhere is the problem. And yeah, for this person that I'm talking about that really turned things around, the pip did more or less come out of nowhere because she wasn't expecting it. Like she had felt like she was getting crapped on repeatedly by the person that she had. And it just me being able to step in and say, you know, you're gonna work for me. Oh, by the way, here's this pip. Like the way that I had to present it was, you know, I didn't present it, even if it felt for her like, oh, this is the first step towards being pushed out. I let her know, like, that that's not the case. I mean, obviously, anybody is gonna have however they take things, but she was able to lean into it and really turn things around and became one of our most reliable employees. And she ended up leaving like a year and a half later and didn't tell me when she put in her two-week notice. And I was like, dude, really? And she's like, I didn't want you to be mad at me. I'm like, I'm not gonna be mad at you, like you're succeeding. I'm happy for you. Just let me know, damn it.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

I thought we I thought we built something here. Yeah. Man, I I I love hearing that. And to build on the points you made there, I think it becomes incumbent upon management and leaders to to lead with empathy, especially in this area. For one, what's been successful for for me is is really softening that blow. And it's not to say that, oh, I'm soft. It's you know, this is uh you can do better, bud, and just that's the conversation. No, like the what I mean by softening the blow is really communicating up front that listen, This conversation today, this progressive discipline, this pip, whatever, wherever you're at with that is in the process. But you you it's incumbent upon leadership to say to to really truly not only say but also mean it. Like this, I'm not trying to get rid of you. I need you. I need you to be successful. This company needs you, this district needs you. And to be successful, I need you to perform up to here, right? The standard. And and to do that, I I really want you to succeed. This is not a tool or a mechanism for me to try and get rid of you. That's not what I'm doing today. I'm I'm really, I really want for you to be successful. And I want us to to improve our service. And because we're a team and it's and I'm in the position where I need to help you do that. Now, that's a soft approach. And no matter what, how if you use the words around change your tone flexion, you know, it's going to be taken negatively, like we talked about earlier. Um, and they're going to hear you, you, you know, you lazy POS, this, that, and the other. They're because that's how that's how I internalize it, you know, and that's how I hear. Even if people are saying that, I'm gonna hear, oh man, I screwed up or whatever. It's gonna be negative, right? Um, so even acknowledge that. Say, look, I know what what this is, this is not fun. This is in this because potentially embarrassing for you, or they're gonna tell you how they feel, right? And then kind of take that and say, look, you told me this is how you feel. And because uh because I think it's because you're hearing me say those words and make you feel that way. That is not how I want, how I want you to know, or excuse me, that's not how I see you. I see you as someone who just needs a little help, right? And and really take the time to to to to be caring, to show empathy, to show like, what is it that I can do to help you succeed? How can I help you? Here's what I have, and that's where you introduce the the pip, right? Like, this is how these are tools where I think you're going to be successful. Now, you tell me if this is gonna work for you, right? Because ultimately, like you you need them to work for you, right? And then then then to me, that that's how I like if you don't think showing up on time is gonna help you succeed, right? If you don't think checking your emails more than once a week is gonna help you succeed, I would love to hear another alternative, Ryan. Right. Of course I'm not being that flippant and that sarcastic in the meeting, but but sometimes it's some it most of the time for me in my in my world, it is that simple, right? It is because I if if you start I don't I don't want to get into that complication, but leading with empathy, right? So softening the bow and and really not only saying it because that's the that's a box you're supposed to check, right? But really meaning it. I'm here to help you improve. I'm I I don't I do not like the discipline approach, I like the educate approach, right? And this is what this is. I need I need this out of you. This is what I'm getting, this is why it's not okay. This is the roadmap to get there again, uh uh from a high-level perspective. And then and and doing it from a place of genuine care.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Well, right. So, I mean, because the the whole point of of the pip is that it's it's a current state that you're trying to address. It's it's not about how high somebody can go. So it's it's really a tool to help somebody reach their potential that that you see in them, right? Like if somebody's a lost cause, then what's the point of a pip if you know that they're going to fail? That's when it becomes more of a weaponized thing when you give them unrealistic expectations that you know they aren't gonna hit, and it's a tool out the door. Like you want people to strive and and push for more. So you kind of have a little bit of stretch goals. But before you make your comment, what you just said.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Go ahead, good.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Well, I was thinking about uh my my son. So so when you said uh like tell me if this is something that you think will help you or whatever, and I'm thinking, like, he's gonna be like, nope, it's not, and then like, oh, okay, well, I guess I won't give it to you then.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

So I wanted to build on that point and and sort of give a couple a tip. Uh also um, you had said, you know, these are the expectations now, and and and maybe even through personal experience or otherwise in your coaching, you've come across where the expectations were just unrealistic. Don't, as a leader, don't set those expectations on your own. Have a conversation where the expectations are mutually agreed upon. So that, so it's kind of a a uh uh tactical move to where they can't say, well, this is unrealistic, right? No, we agreed upon this, and this is what you said you could do. Now, if you at any point during the PIP in our check-ins, if if that those need to be adjusted, I want you to know as an employee, Ryan, we can't adjust those, right? But for right now, this is what they are until our next meeting, and then we'll we'll kind of reassess. Also, another kind of tip that that's helped me is after the initial conversation, because that's going to be the hardest piece, is the, hey, you screwed up. Um, if if tensions and emotions are high, you could always break that up, right? And say, hey, listen, why don't we just leave things here for today, right? We'll come back to this maybe tomorrow. I want you in the meantime, not think about what you've done. That's the wrong thing to say. I want you to think about how I can help you improve, right? Put your, put, give them some kind of onus to communicate to you what they need. And maybe we come back to this pip on another day, maybe a day or two later, um, and and then we can discuss it whenever emotions aren't so high. And of course, we're not saying that in the meeting. That's the tactical move, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Yeah. I mean, I was just thinking about my own experience. And if I had been more mature in uh that moment, um I would I would have, you know, tried to to separate the the emotion from it and just listened objectively. Um and really tried to, I guess, seek seek clarity on what the expectations were because it it wasn't, I don't know, like it was, it was fleshed out, but it was also vague enough to where there weren't real measurables. So it was like, oh, you need to improve this, you need to improve this. It's like, okay, well, to what level? Where what am I yeah, you know, what will be me off this bit? You know, it's like, oh, well, when you feel that I've achieved it, like we'll move on. And it so if I I'd say if you're ever on the receiving end of one, try to approach it objectively. Yes, it's it's a hit to your your ego and your pride, but try to use it as a tool that isn't forcing you out, but something that you can really take with you and seek uh uh clarity and the and the expectations and focus on what you can control. Um, don't get bent out of shape about what you can't. And for people that are issuing pips, if you've on, you know, if you're in that position where you find yourself, think about how it would feel for you on the receiving end of it and try to be as clear and concise about the expectations and what you need in terms of improvement. And like Ernie said, you want to set your goals in line in alignment with uh, you know, the the personal work together, but you also kind of have your baseline measure of, okay, well, I can't allow the uh expected change to be beyond this point. So like you have your your base that you can't go below, but work with them to see what they can uh or what they think is uh is accomplishable. Because you want them to hit certain targets and say, okay, I'm I'm doing the things I need to do and have that success. So when you pull the pip, it's like, okay, you know, we're back on the track, we're good to go.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yeah, I think I think with where things start to sort of break down as far as my colleagues are concerned, other leaders in other industries and other uh institutions, is one bit of feedback and one bit of conversation I have with or I've had and been part of with other folks who are in non-union environments is it's almost like they feel sorry for me, right? When I tell them, oh yeah, we we work in a union environment. And they're like, oh, that means you can't get rid of anybody that sucks. You can't fire anybody. You can and you know, all the the uh all the the the the stereotypical responses, but for me, I've I've only ever been in a union environment, but it it makes me I I'm more comfortable. I think I tapped my mic, sorry, I'm more comfortable here because there's very clear cut uh parameters for the most part, right? I've always said in a union environment, there's the contract, that's our Bible. Both of us are beholden to that, both the the employee and the the employer. Um, and everything else that can't be stipulated in that contract, which is never going to be the case in that because you'd have just volumes and volumes and volumes of contract, right? Language, but it's a good starting point. And from there, we're going to negotiate on how we can uh don't use that word negotiate because that can get you in trouble if you're not part of the negotiation teams. Uh, we're going to talk about how we can, how we meet that goal, right, as a team. Um I'm not afraid of those, those, those parameters, because for me, they're like they're they're they're fence lines, they're guidelines that for both of us, right? And and and where a pip comes into play is that both your job description, and maybe I'm getting a little too technical, but your job description, your, your contract, your policy, the law, all that, it provides so much framework where we can use as a base objectively. If I'm being unfair, I'm where I'm coming from is in it is holding you accountable, because I want to don't want to use the word in force, um, holding you accountable to this, this letter of the law, or this letter of the CBA, right? Or this is the policy right here. You, I'm not gonna try and give or put put myself in a place where they're arguing with me. I want them to see and argue with data, with law, with policy, right? Um, and then so how, like I said, how a pip comes into play, that is going to be reflective. The pip whether it's expectations or whether it's violations or whatever the dot, that is gonna, the pip's gonna be based in that in as much as possible. I understand that this is much more nuanced than that, but if you start as that, as your base, I mean you're you're you're on solid footing as a leader.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

No, I agree. And and I think that like the the the pip AA pip is not the end of your career either. Like you can come back to your pip, just like you can come back from from being fired. You you've been there, I've been there. Like, you know, you you bounce back and you continue. And I I think any long career has some level of of hardship in it to where you do receive critical feedback or or you know, worse, or you, or you get terminated, or you have a pip or you have a write-up. And I think that the way that you come back from those points in time that you know hit, it it really helps to shape you as a leader, right? Because it's you you grow in those times of of adversity, right? Like it it's a lot about uh resilience and and how you're able to adapt and and rise above those low points.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Yeah, I I agree in as so much as as long as you are taking accountability. True. I've I've I've run across this so much where I mean there's there's examples, example after example of people that I could that come to mind where I mean John Flanagan, I there's we're gonna use that name. John is a technical expert. He is so good at what he does when he's focused, right? But he misses 50 days a year for and there's always an excuse. A doctor's notes aren't hard to get. And I I hate to sound like uh flippant about it or you know, but they're not hard to get. I can go get one right now and say my back hurts and be out for a week, right? I have a really, really hard time um processing the the thought process uh behind those individuals who just refuse to take accountability. And I know I'm getting all straight off topic a little bit, but I I I wanna, I wanna, I want to, yeah, I think you're right.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Well, I I mean I I think that's what separates leadership potential is your own measure of accountability all also, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:25

So exactly. And that's so how a pip works into this is by taking that accountability, is by saying, you know what, to some degree, I might not I might not agree with everything in here, but boy, he's right there. I really should check my emails more than once a week. And I'm I'm just using a bland example because that's the one that bugs me the most. Uh I don't know if you can tell. Uh, but you know, it's maddening because I I know I at least half a dozen individuals right now that uh that I could that are up here in names and faces that boy, you could really be something in this industry and in in the industry that I'm in. I know you can because your your potential uh to to to grow is huge, but you can't, you just keep you're making yourself your own worst enemy. You can't get out of your own way. Uh, I was talking to another uh colleague of mine where this this topic came up and they present they they were talking about, you know, someone on their team, and I just saw, yep, I know that person. I don't know the person, right? I don't know them from a box of paint, but I know them because I they've been part of my team, right? And and and I don't know, I feel like I'm repeating myself at this point, but don't be that person. Take accountability for this. There's that is going to you it the pit might feel like a step backwards, and it it probably is, but if you could take that step backwards and really, really decide whether that's gonna be a growth opportunity or not, right? Or um to take accountability and then take three steps forward, right? That like you you alluded to earlier, all of our careers, hell, all of our lives. There it's just a series of peaks and valleys, man. And what you do at that valley is really gonna determine how high your next peak is gonna be. Was that profound, Ryan? Did I I think I just had an out of bottom experience when I said that? I think you did. You should put that in a fortune cookie. It's just it's just life advice, man. That's that's that's the best I can give based on my experience, you know. Uh the to further expound on that, it's it's it it effing sucks, dude, to be in the valleys. Um you've you've known me long enough to to see me when I'm in mine. But hold up a a mirror and really take note, like, how did I get here? What the hell happened? It was going so good, you know? And then really look at a critical look at, yeah, if I'm being honest with myself, that's I stumbled here. I'm not gonna do that again, right? And and taking that account, holding yourself to that level of accountability. No, I I I agree.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

I I I think you you so you you mentioned uh uh a growth opportunity. And I think if you are, you know, if you find yourself on a pip right now, um, or in the future, whenever you find yourself on one, just think about what what story you're telling yourself and and is it a growth opportunity, like you said, or is it a sign to to pivot and and look elsewhere? Or am I just not a fit for what this culture is or has become? And like you said, be honest with yourself and do a real evaluation of your current standing and what's best for you in that moment. I mean, don't be, you know, quick to pull the trigger and say, oh, I better quit before they can fire me because the economy right now is probably not one you want to be uh jobless in. But, you know, just uh think objectively and strategically about what it means, like you said, to come out of that valley and and where you want to be at your next peak.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

And in in sort of wrapping up, I do want to mention that I feel confident where I'm at in my career because of the resilience that we just talked to, those, those valleys, those peaks and valleys. I again I and I and I'm only sharing this to hopefully inspire and hopefully those out somebody out there who might not feel like very confident because they're in the middle of a pip or because they're in one of the those those those low times. Um man, I say it all the time, is like, man, you know how many times I've done started over? You don't scare me. Or you know what I mean? Because and I think, and I didn't come up with that on my own. I I think I heard a rapper say it. Um uh but it it it is true, man. Like, like this builds resilience. The the the pip that you're going through, the valley that you're going through, the this hard time you're going through, embrace the suck, man, and and and really, really begin to know like this, I'm I'm I'm I'm building muscle, I'm building resilience. And and the confidence that is the that is the child of that of that uh attitude or that that that is the the outcome of that, um, you could really know that this confidence doesn't come because I have a spotless record. This confidence doesn't come from me never being put on a pip, or you know what I mean? Because like I don't have a spotless record, I've been fired, and I'm about to get fired from this show, evidently. You should get that on a bumper sticker. Embrace the suck. I think it already is. I I didn't make that up. I've seen it so. Oh, is that a saying? I think so. I don't know. Yeah, well, it has to, dude. I don't, I'm not very original. I know I know what to get you for Christmas now. I don't do bumper stickers. That screams poor. Oh, I'll get you a hoodie. That's a joke.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

That's another joke. Um there was something I wanted to say. I'm sorry, did I?

SPEAKER_00 41:12

No, I did because I made the stupid bumper sticker fucking joke.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

I like how in your in some of our minds, like we have a like, well, this is gonna be a banger point, and then all of a sudden, dumb joke just cuts the line and we make the dumb joke, and then point's gone. I do that all the time. Ask my secretary.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

Oh. Also, if you've never been personally on a pip, you know, you may be in a situation where you have to put somebody else on a pip. And the best piece of advice that I can give for you is just imagine it's you receiving it and how you would want to receive it. For those of you that have been on one, you obviously know what it felt like and you can relate. I think if if you haven't been on one, just try to imagine what it would be like on the receiving end of a pip. And I think the best way to lead up to a pip is as we talked about earlier in the show, make sure that somebody isn't caught by surprise. Like have constant feedback on performance that is going well. Have you know constant feedback on things that aren't doing so well. So it's the la the worst thing that you want is somebody to be caught off guard by something that they had no idea was an issue.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

So, to the listener, if you are a leader, if you are a an employee, or if you find yourself either issuing a pip or have issued a pip or in the middle of a performance improvement plan as your as an employee, um, and you have any questions, feel free to hit us up. I I can't promise that we'll have all the right answers, but we will have a response. And um we will have we'll definitely have some answers. Yeah, yeah. You might not like them either. Like I the what's funny is I've invited feedback in other arenas, not just this podcast. And sometimes the feedback I get is hey, I'm in this situation. And once they lay it all out, it's am I the a-hole? The the Reddit thread that that just basically am I the asshole? Yeah, you know what I mean? It's one of those moments where I'm like, bro, sounds like if I was your boss, I'd be doing the same damn thing they're doing to you. Yeah. So you want to wrap up?

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Yeah. So until next week, leading ain't easy. But you don't have to do it alone. Thanks for tuning in to leading ain't easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit reframeRise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and Other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's reframeRise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bus Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.