Why "We're Like a Family" Can Backfire

The "we're like a family here" pitch is everywhere... and for a lot of people, it sounds like exactly what they want. Belonging. Loyalty. People who have your back.

But Ryan Calkins and John Moore have both lived the other side of that story; as leaders who genuinely wanted to build real team culture, and as people who eventually had to confront what it cost them.

In this episode, they get into:

• Why the family framing puts invisible pressure on employees and the sense of obligation that builds quietly and often goes unexamined until something breaks
• Ryan's decision to split his paternity leave across four quarters to protect the team, and the moment he realized the company wasn't holding the same loyalty in return
• John's experience being told by HR that he was too invested in his staff and why that was genuinely hard to hear
• What happens when "we're family" triggers something different for every person walking through the door, and why leaders need to account for that
• The difference between building a culture of genuine care versus over-investing in people who aren't asking for it, or in a company that doesn't share your vision
• What a healthier version actually looks like: community over family language, measured investment, and separating personal worth from workplace performance

This isn't a conversation about how to build a better culture program. It's two people talking through what they got wrong, what it cost them, and what they'd do differently.

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

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Transcript

Ryan Calkins 0:00

Leading ain't easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, John Moore. As we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't: the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy. Last week, John and I talked about a few episodes that we would like to come back and touch on, and one of them was the idea of family culture and how it can sometimes be toxic in a workplace. And most people have heard the we're like a family here, and it provides a sense of belonging and support and loyalty. But, and there's always a but the phrase also can come with some expectations that maybe aren't necessarily considered when you go into it, right, John?

John Moore 1:26

And that was the funny part when you when you brought up this topic. And I was thinking, I said, God, Lee, you know he's right. There are times in which it could, and I and I hate to feel that way, but there are some forms of toxicity that can very well damper the whole work experience because there are, as you said, expectations that you are to have. You know, when we use this term of we're all a family at work, that comes with a lot of responsibility from the leadership side, on the leadership side. When you think about that, what kind of the responsibilities when you hear we're all a family, where do you think that puts you as a leader as to what you are now, you're now you know placed in that kind of place that you have to now be the lead of the family?

Ryan Calkins 2:10

Well, it's it's a hard topic for me because like leaving the the the military, like I sought to recreate kind of that that sense of camaraderie in in every role and organization that I've had, and tried to recreate a a tight-knit team that that would have each other's backs and cover for each other. And it I always tried to make it more than it was. And like for me, it it it I think we talked about the you know, the the blurred boundaries, and it made things harder for me because when there were issues, it was impossible to not take things personal because I was putting so much of myself personally into things and investing in these relationships that I you know truly valued, like beyond the work. And I respected people more than just as an employee. And I think I had going going through things, it it took me a long time to separate. I don't even know if I ever fully separated that that that mindset and desire to kind of recreate that, but it it has brought me a lot of I guess rewarding relationships. I mean, we met through uh an organization, and every job that I've ever had, I've left with one or two or maybe three very close friends that like when I build relationships with people, they last and and they mean something to me. But I also had a false, I don't know. I I mean it wasn't a sense, but I I I guess it was a false expectation that you could apply that to everybody and they would share the same desire and and bond to want to have that type of relationship where you know in the military, you you you get that because you're dealing with things that not everybody does, and you bond over that shared experience, and it it just means something more. And I I don't know, it was frustrating because, like you said, you know, it just has that that blurred boundary and and where does it where does it stop and where do and begin, you know?

John Moore 4:56

But I also think too, all of what you said I agree with. I also think too, on the flip side, I'm thinking about it from the corporate side as to the I was thinking of a point of where there was a time where I think I we had to go to HR for a staff member. And I remember it was difficulty for me to do what I needed to do for that staff member because we were so close, right? And it was a disciplinary action kind of a scenario, right? And so now you have someone that you've, you know, seen them go through their good times, their growth, their bad times, or whatever, and now we got to discipline you, right? Or do a disciplinary pip or whatever it may be at the time. And it was very difficult for me. And I think I remember the HR person telling me that you could not personalize everyone and everything, and that you had to have uh a distinction between staff and you. You know, you couldn't blend in or blur, and it's hard because I I know I said this on one of our other episodes where, you know, you want to create that environment, but also you're not thinking about uh how it brings in a sense of toxicity and not purposely. It just brings it in because it's like now you're sitting with an expectation, the person is sitting with an expectation because you said we're family. And so with that, they bring the baggage. This is where the toxicity comes in of what they think family represents and what family is, right? And so now when you're saying we're family, they're trying to connect those. Oh, you know, it should be like how my dad treats me, or it should be like, and so now it's like, oh, you know, how do I, how do I actually navigate that? And it was hard because I remember some hard times of having to deal with things, but also um HR, which is their good part of what they do, is they date, if you have a good HR team, they coach you through that and they really teach you you cannot personalize everything and everybody you cannot befriend. And that was hard for me too. Um, and then I had to teach that when I was teaching new managers on managerial ethics. Like if you are an internal employee and now you become a manager and you were friends with Sally and you also go to lunch every day. Well, you can't do that every day now. And you can't tell Sally every day, and that was a hard pill for people to swallow. It's like, wait, we've been friends for 20 years. I know, but you're a manager now. Matter of fact, you're her manager now. So I think this point was so, so really, you know, it's really deep. And I think also to some other points where it talks about the belonging sense of it when you say we are a family, the support, the loyalty, those pieces come into it as well. And and those, to be honest with you, Ryan, we can't always fulfill, especially if they're disciplinary action, especially if they're, you know, whatever it may be, if there's sexual harassment cases. I had one of those scenarios. You got to put all that to the side. And that's a hard pill to do when you have built relationships with people and you've approached them as being a family, which is what I always wanted to do with my staff. I wanted them to feel comfortable, but then they've taught me over the years you cannot do that for everyone. What are your thoughts?

Ryan Calkins 8:17

Well, as you as you were talking about that, I was also thinking about the other, I guess, dynamic that I kind of sabotage myself on in that camaraderie building piece and trying to, you know, make it a family environment for myself. And my my thinking was always that you spend so much time at work, like sometimes you see your coworkers more than you see your family, you know? So it you want to have that type of relationship with people where you feel close because you spend so much time with them, but it I don't know, it it got to the point to where like I would feel guilty for taking time off. And like with my first son, I didn't want to hurt the company and I didn't want to leave people with my work and take a three-month block of time off. So I took two weeks one quarter and two weeks another quarter and spread my paternity leave over the course of the year because I was thinking I was doing what was best for for them. And it just it didn't necessarily, it wasn't necessarily the best thing for me. So when I had my second son, I was like, you know what, screw this. Like, I'm taking my leave, like I need the time. Um, I mean, also granted, I I didn't know what the hell to expect with a first kid because I had never had one, but but I I did it in a way that was more beneficial for them and trying to take care of the people that I work with. And it just I don't know, it it was just a another instance of of being overly loyal without having because they didn't give a shit that you know I was out, and you know, I I found that out later, but I don't know, it it just it it was kind of the turning point for me where it really started to affect me that the wanting to to build the sense of camaraderie piece was starting to to to go wrong for me. And it was just it was it was the it was kind of the start of my burnout. Like I it it was a it was a consulting job where everything is very high on billable hours, and I tried to work like 60 hour weeks leading up to Remy's birth, and my thought was I'll front load all of these hours, build myself a cushion, and I'll recover during paternity leave, come back and and whatever, which was the dumbest thing possible because obviously I'm not getting sleep, I'm not recovering. And it was like as things slowly started to normalize again, like I felt like I never really recovered from it and was just exhausted. And then Dexter came and it was like the cycle started all over, and I just got so burned out and trying to not just do my job, but you know, be there for the kids, be a dad, a new dad, which was an entirely new experience. But also, it's the role that I had uh as a director of operations. I was doing everything internally and client-facing, but I also carved out a role that was uh a director of people, also that was focused on team building and engagement and all of the things that I carved out as a secondary uh responsibility tree that didn't exist, um, because that's what was important to me was the team building. And and like I said, you know, that sense of camaraderie and just I didn't have the capacity to continue working 50, 60 hours a week so I could do the part of the job, which was my primary job that I didn't enjoy, in order to focus on the thing that I did enjoy, that availability and and it it it dwindled with the kids. And I just didn't have the energy and the drive to continue to do it while also fighting internally to show the worth and the value in the team building and providing feedback and growth opportunities for people and developing your team and showing a sense of care in what they're doing, it just it it it it just became too much.

John Moore 13:25

When you were talking, you know, first I don't think that it was a bad thing that you wanted camaraderie. I don't think that at all. But what I find interesting, and and we were talking about that generations about our work ethic. And I and I don't hear anything wrong with the work ethic either. I just think that what has happened is the work ethic has shifted. Where we were so geared on, you know, the company, the employees, you know, everything was so geared to that. And then when we start getting the realism of what's really happening, unfortunately, um, companies not really as vested as we thought they were in us. Uh the company is not uh really um showing the concern that we thought they really did or that we are for their employees. I think that those realizations start to happen. And then it starts to forgive if I'm putting words in your in your thoughts, which is this sounds like it could start to build resentment, but it's like, but it's not resentment in a sense of you willing to do it. You know what I'm saying? If you were willing to do it because of the work ethic, because of the the passion, the value in it, the the investment in it, the loyalty, right? All those things were not wrong. You know, they weren't wrong. These are things that we were built up, we were grown up in, right? I think that as we just gotten older and wiser and we've had more experiences, whether good or bad, there were we could there were learned experiences, and we just learned how to find our balance, to be honest with you, because I think I said this in previous episodes. No, I would not give what I used to give, because I now have a total different understanding of what company and how company does. Then back then, it was like, you need me, I'm their boss, that kind of thing, because we were taught that's what you do. But not only has generations changed, but work ethic has changed, right? So it's it's funny when I hear you say that and it's just like, yeah, all those things were valuable, but you know what was happening? All world around you was changing.

Ryan Calkins 15:34

Well, it was it was changing, but it I I guess it it also wasn't changing, and I was naive to think that I I would I would justify being in a job or roles that didn't necessarily fit by saying it's not about the work anyway, it's about the people. And I would continue to, and I was good at it, you know, and I would get promoted and I would keep going, even though through something was off, right? But my thought process was man, if I could just get to this level, I can influence and make the difference and the change that I want to make. And no matter how high I went, you know, through management, middle management, senior management, executive level, it was like ceiling. I was lying to myself. Like it was never going, I was never going to have the influence that I thought that I could in the impact that I could make. And I was, it was one of those things where it's like you're given a green light on stuff, but you're never really provided the resources to accomplish it because ownership or the people in play on what can actually happen aren't invested in it. So it's like, yeah, you go do what you want to do. We're not really going to support it, but you go do what you need to do to be to have your temporary satisfaction.

John Moore 17:11

And then even in what you were saying, that that, you know, coming outside of the sense of the whole family component, that's more us than it is them kind of scenario. It's what we want for folks, right? It's what we want for the company, is what we what we, you know, what we think should be the best way. And I think that's the key, is what we see for the company that they don't see. That's where you said they don't give you the support, they don't give you the resources, because they don't see the same thing. They don't have that same vision that you have. One, you're working with the staff, you're working in the midst of the production, you see it, you see where the problems are. And of course, you you make suggestions, but they don't. They're working with numbers, they're number guys. You know, they that that's the only thing that moves them is how much money we make and how much money we're losing. That's it. Where you're thinking about, well, you know, well, Sally just had a kid, so you know, this, that, and the third. Well, John, he's doing blah, blah, blah. So I want to make you thinking about all those intrical details where the higher leadership, they don't ever think about that. Never. And even that that might be your, which is a good, you know, thought process to have, but it's just unrealistic to think that the buy-in is going to always be received from the higher ups. It could be received from your staff and staff level down, but it won't always be received from higher ups because they want to know dollars and cents, is that gonna make me money?

Ryan Calkins 18:29

Well, yeah, you're right. And and and I guess that's the the other piece of it. So I had my own flaw in my approach to the camaraderie and my sense of family in the workplace. But then it's also you have workplaces that are talking about a sense of family and you should put your family first. Oh, you should, you know, do this. And uh all of these things to where it's like they talk about we have this family environment, we put our employees first, we do this, we do that, but it's not really backed up when push comes to shove. And you see it, especially when you're at certain levels, to where you see the conversations that are happening behind the scenes, despite what they're telling the general workforce. And it's like, okay, well, this is all bullshit. Like, we're sitting here telling everybody this thing when we have no intention of actually doing it. And then I'm trying to create what we're like, I want to practice what we're preaching, right?

John Moore 19:36

But the funny part about what you're saying is at a certain level, exactly what you're saying can be done. But when it goes into executive level or the higher level, they're not, you're right. They're not worried about those things because it still goes back to what I said earlier about dollars and cents. Is that gonna make me money? Now, and that's I would say again, I might have said this and I'll say it again. I would think that that's more of your later 90s going into 2000s, where it was very not saying it never wasn't focused on money, but where that orientation of family and inclusiveness and you know, how is Sally doing? Did she go to college and all the kids are going to college because they all worked at the same company? So, you know, seeing that, I think that shift happened where it really lessened and it was more about, and this is probably where you saw it more, it was about dollars and cents. So they really didn't have the time. Like right now, today, we have um AI coming in and doing a lot of, and I'm not sure this is the venue to talk about it, but they're doing a lot of replacing of bodies because they don't want to pay for child leave. They don't want to pay for the medical, they don't want, and we're and you cut all these things, that's money back in their pockets. And yeah, they they can very much have the values and the missions of saying, yes, we're family-oriented. But when they look at the bottom line, it's about dollar savings. And we know insurance is expensive, we know workmen's comp is expensive, we know those things are expensive, but now it's like, hey, can I have that fulfilled with AI? Yeah. And I don't have to pay so-and-so, yeah. I thought you would understand. Oh, yeah, let's do that. So that whole vision of what where we came from, unfortunately, is gone. Even if we were to get right back into that realm, we can even froke it, we can't even program ourselves to work that same way. We couldn't. As much as we would want to, we couldn't. The the staff is different, the environments are different. Yeah, there's a there's a lot of uh different components in it more now than it's ever been. I mean, remote work, period. I mean, yes, back in the day there was remote work. I remember back in the in the nineties, it was a remote work. We were ten hour days and we had a Friday or a Monday off. That was great. We had ten hours, we had um Four-day weeks. And we're working from home. So there wasn't anything new to me, but at the same time, it wasn't the norm. Now you're dealing with a whole culture where you're managing people from their home. And another full thing, and forgive me if I'm offending anyone out there, but you have people who are working two jobs. So while they're supposed to be on the call with you or taking calls from your company, they're also taking calls with somebody else. So now you got to manage that. And sometimes they're not really skilled well in doing this, you know, these dual things. Remember, we're supposed to be family, but I'm recording the call and I can hear you on another company's comp. You know, it's like, what are we doing here? So it's a whole different world. And and I I miss, I really do miss the adages that you spoke about. I do. I miss those. I really miss going into an environment, people concerned, people loving. I do miss that. But I just know that that was then and this is now. And now it's like everybody's for themselves. What do you think?

Ryan Calkins 23:06

As sad as that is, but it's a true statement. I I don't disagree. And I think it's something that is still a struggle for me because it's hard to not care. Yeah, it's hard to not care. That's that's exactly it. It's hard not to care.

John Moore 23:24

And there's a good place for us in that in this big old world that we have, but it still is hard not to care.

Ryan Calkins 23:31

And I I I guess there's just a a danger in caring too much because you can let your work kind of get tied to your your self-worth and belonging. And when the job or the relationships with people that you thought were close, you know, erode, it like I I don't know. When you personalize too much, your self-confidence also gets destroyed. And then it's like, well, I can't go anywhere else because I won't provide anybody else value. Or you start to question your own, I don't know if it's motivations, but it definitely, like when everything was happening for me, like I don't mean to make this a therapy session for myself, but with with everything that was happening with me and and the burnout, it was just like the self-confidence was just getting absolutely wrecked to where I don't know. You know, I don't know.

John Moore 24:38

It I mean, it's it's a it's a very touchy situation. And the reason it's touchy is because of the belonging, of wanting to be of that same value, right? But then in the background, knowing that this is not really the place or that there's really not going to be an appreciation for it. That hurts the heart because you come in with all good intention, right? But then the intention just goes on deaf ears once it goes after another, you know, certain levels, if you will. So I get that. But what what do you think about exploring how family, you know, framing can pressure employees? What do you think about that? Like that family framing, how it can pressure employees. Like we're talking about it from a leadership standpoint, but I wonder how does it impact the employee when we're saying, well, we're all family. I wonder what pressures does that put on the actual employee.

Ryan Calkins 25:36

I don't know. Well, when I was an in an employee, like early in my career, I used to seek out that that family feel environment because of the and and the sense of belonging and and wanting to be part of something more. Um but I part of it is like I I didn't really understand it until later, or at least appreciate it until later. But it kind of comes with that sense of obligation to where you feel compelled to perform at a different level because it's supposed to be like family and we trust each other. And it it just feels like more undue pressure that maybe you don't realize in the moment, to where when you go to a job that is disconnected, you just go to work, you do your job, and you go home, you know, and like punch your ticket, punch out at the end of the day. But with that, that family add-on, it's like, okay, well, it's family. Like I go out of my way for my family. I I would die for my family, you know? And it's it's just I don't know. I guess it's kind of a of an undue pressure that maybe you don't even realize.

John Moore 26:58

It's an undue pressure, but also it's a stress because you are constantly trying to sustain the uh the sense and feeling of family. Now, the odd thing about family in the workplace, there could be an opposite to it when we say we are family. Well, what if they didn't come from a healthy family environment? And what if that helped that environment was a toxic health, you know, environment? So now we're saying we're all family and they're associating it with what that was. So therefore, I think that's another reason why we have to be very mindful as to what we equate as family because everyone interpretes it differently too, right? So, you know, when someone interprets it, maybe in our generation, because we saw different things, we saw family units different, we saw different things, it was kind of a normal. But now you say that where they're coming from dysfunction, they may be coming from a single-parent home, all these different things. And when you use that word, it could be triggering. It could very well be triggering, it could put them into a bad spot. No, we're not family, we don't know each other, you you know, or when it's time to write someone up, I thought we were family. I thought we were family, and it goes into total, total left. So that's a and that's why I hate that we can't be that way, but then I also understand why we can't be that way. So I'm very in the middle about it because I get it from both sides. I've seen it from both sides. I've seen what you are describing 100%. And I've also seen being in the midst of it in the HR, and my HR person is like, you're too bested. You care too much. And to hear that from another human being is hard to hear. But when you're in that role, you have to be able to hear that and not only hear it, but do something about it. And that's, you know, one of the things that I find, I remember you asked me something about advice uh that was given to me. And one of the in the statement that I used was, you know, be uh be fair. And also in that we were trained back then to be leaders. These folks are not training people to be leaders now. It's like, oh, you can do, oh, you're on time. Oh, you can do, okay, you're gonna be this the lead. And they're not identifying, well, is this a leader? You know, do they have leadership chops? Am I training them to be a leader? Am I giving them the tools to be a good leader? See, a lot of my leadership came from forms of training, but also trial and error. Yeah. You see? And so when we had trial and error, which is, I think, the best learning, because you're in the midst of it, you're learning, you're not just learning it from a book, but you're learning it from experience. I thought it was great. And I still think it's great. But now I have a whole nother look at it. It's it's just different. It's different. Yeah. It's different. It really, really is.

Ryan Calkins 29:55

The hardest part for for me, I think, is my biggest strength and asset as a leader is being real and grounded and being an empathetic leader that really bonds with people and gives a shit. And my biggest, I guess my greatest successes have come as a result of that approach to treating people with respect and dignity and wanting to build genuine relationships with people. But and and I it's also led to my biggest failures for for myself personally, not you know, the the result of others being hurt but why by what I'm doing, but my putting others ahead and and doing everything that that I'm trying to do to ensure that they are taken care of and and they get the the growth opportunities and everything else, it has come at a cost for me that I don't even know how to articulate, but uh it's I don't know.

John Moore 31:08

You know, and that's that's uh the good part that I hope that you never really, really change. I think on the other side, this is where I said earlier about we got to have balance because we have to know when to be that way and we have to know when not to be that way. And I think that that's sometimes the hard part is just switching it off and on, right? Because everyone doesn't, and I hate to say this, but everyone, well, I'm not gonna use that word, but everyone you can't do that too. And what life has taught me from experience, no, I can't do that to everyone. I can't be what you just describe to every single person because they're not going to respond the same way. And if I'm gonna be a little selfish, I'm gonna get hurt in the process because I care more than they care. And that's when you care more about them and their job and their situation than they care about their job and their situation. That's tough. It is tough because you know your goal is, oh, I want you to have I see the potential, I want you to be this, and they're like, What? Whatever. I'm just clocking in, I'm clocking out, I'm out, I'm not doing no more, no less. And you see the potential in that person, you see the leadership in that person, you see next level, and they could care less. You could care less about all of that, and it's a hard pill to swallow because you can see it. They could be my predecessor, they could be the one after if I leave, they could be, mm-mm. They're not concerned with that.

Ryan Calkins 32:39

I have a really close friend that is one of those people where it's like, dude, you could be so much more successful if you just cared, you know?

John Moore 32:52

So many people are like that, and that's a whole nother episode because there's so many people like that. And that comes outside of work, it's from home and home values. And to be honest with you, um, you know, I was thinking about you when you were talking about your your uh grandparent or your grandfather specifically, and how you would go on different jobs and watch him uh do the work. The the foundation in which he taught you was something that were life lessons that should never be forgotten. And this is why it's so difficult for you to disassociate from that. It's because this is what you this is what was in your makeup. This is what you were born in. Same for me. My mother worked for the school board in New York, I'll never forget it. And how she would interact with the people, how she would interact with the teachers, how she would interact with everybody made me think that's what work is supposed to be. You know everybody, everybody are friends, and you know, you get everybody's hey, I'm gonna get some coffee. I get I literally modeled that same behavior that you cared about your fellow co-workers.

Ryan Calkins 33:57

I want to be clear that my grandpa was not making me sit there and learn out of love. Yeah, out of love. He was like, I need you to do some good work, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:06

He's like, you'll sit your ass there and be my assistant. No, he was very much a labor, some labor there, right? Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 34:13

Yeah, no, he was very much a children should be seen and not heard type of uh person, you know. But like he he was a total hard ass and and a and a real a-hole. Like he you know, back back, I mean, he used to grab break a switch off the tree and we'd get that at the at the dinner table just for joking around as kids, which obviously is a big no-no these days. No, but I don't know. So you you you talked about how you know people come from different backgrounds and families and and things like that. And it's like if I took that approach into the workplace, like my family was was the type where every holiday it wasn't like a real family holiday until somebody got pissed off and left angry. Where my sense of of family at work was formed in in the military, where you created the bonds with people, right? And that is what I try to create. Not like my literal family, but the family that the family feel of just policing each other and taking care of each other and handling things in-house instead of going out of. Yeah. Right. And I guess that's what I was always trying to recreate. And it just seemed like, and that's not to say that there's not politics and people, you know, vying for position in the military, because there is, but it just seems more cutthroat and and ruthless in the corporate world and and private work in in that you could have somebody be friendly to your face and be cutting your ear. And and they're yeah, they're they're slicing your throat while your your back is turned. And it's just, I don't know, the the just the level of of I don't know.

John Moore 36:07

But what's funny about that made me think about even still using the word family in the work environment. Think about if that's a learned behavior, that that's even how they are at home, or if that was a part of their culture, that that's what they still did, right? You you spoke about uh there wasn't a family event unless someone went home angry. You know, think about that. It could be the same as someone working in an environment that there was it was a learnt behavior, that this is what they did. These are the things in which they do. That negativity, that toxicity, they bring that in. Remember, that's the negative part about saying, oh, we're a family. Oh, okay. So I guess y'all like how we act at home, you know. No, we're not. But when you use that word, that's what it equates and internalizes to them. And I think that's where our job as leaders is to not only promote the way in which you are defining that word, but I think also um how we want the behavior to be conducted, right? And I think that what sometimes happens is it makes it difficult because, again, you're managing people and you're trying to create an environment where everyone is heard and felt like, you know, all those wonderful things, but you just can't for everybody. So therefore, there's limitations. And those limitations can be big. They can be really big. But yeah, I find it interesting uh this topic because it has so many levels to it. I even think that we can even talk about even if we did another one. There's so many different levels to it to where I know we use this word family, but it's it's it's what that word to for us, it was a positive, but for others, it could be a negative. Um, or for us, it could be a positive that then changes into a negative. I mean, there's so many different ways that it can go, and it's just unfortunate because I know for sure that was my pursuit when I first came into leadership. I want to treat everybody good. I'm watched all how the managers treated people like messages, you know, it's awful. I want to do it better, I want to be better. And then when you get into it, you're like, oh, so that's why they treated people that way. That's why they have no love, that's why they have no care, that's why there's no association with that's why when they, you know, whatever, they don't sit together, yeah, you get it. You get it. If you get burned enough, you you learn, right? Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately.

Ryan Calkins 38:40

So when you have the concept of of family building in in the workplace, which can obviously lead to toxic work cultures and everything else, is so your idea or or ideal workplace eliminates the use of the family naming convention for work, but it would still try to build a community approach it in a in a healthier way, I guess, right?

John Moore 39:20

Healthier, but then balanced and also measured way. Now I've learned that later, right? Because each and every time I did it wrong, so I felt, and maybe how what the outcome was, it was a learning experience for me to say, okay, we won't do that again. So it was it was it was balanced, it was fair, but it was measured. And I I kept, you know, just fine-tuning it, fine-tuning it. Because I just knew I could not use the same uh same additives for everybody. I just had to, you know, I had to keep changing it up because the people weren't ready for that kind of, I think I use this word, love. I used to always say, I want to love on my staff. I would always say that I want to love on them because I thought that was a way for them to then get the buy-in, get the investment, uh, all those things because I wanted to love on them. And no, I'm not talking about, oh, I'm gonna love you, take you home, but I wanted to express a sense of appreciation for my staff. And again, uh that came to bite me a couple of times. A couple of times it bit me because everybody's not ready to be loved or or or or familiar with having love in a workspace.

Ryan Calkins 40:36

Yeah. I mean, it's it's an unconventional uh uh naming of it, even if it's what many people practice without realizing it. I mean, I guess it could be off-putting for some people because it's in the workplace and I don't know. I mean, I don't have a problem with it, but I could understand where just using the the terminology would some people may take it the wrong way.

John Moore 41:10

I mean, oh, we're a family, and again, internalize at so many different oh, we're a family. That could have triggered something that somebody else said that we're a family and it made them think the worse, and then you are you're now plagued with that. I mean, it can go in so many different directions. So many different directions, but being able to love on human beings, I thought was a good thing until it wasn't. That was my learning lesson.

Ryan Calkins 41:37

And and with that approach, so so having the the love and respect for the people that you work with leads to a healthier culture without the pressures of the the family label. And things that you had talked about before is like uh setting and and respecting boundaries and clear expectations that that is that part is blanketed, but you can have the individualized communication um that that that's tailored, even though it doesn't change the expectations that people have. But I guess for for to add on to that for me in a healthy work environment, it also allows for disagreement without the the guilt where you feel like you're going against what your family expects, or you know, taking time off where it's like it's okay. I don't have to feel guilty to leave. Like I've earned this time to step away. Um, and just being able to separate performance from from personal worth. Um and like you said, balancing and being mindful of how much of yourself you're putting into your work.

John Moore 43:06

And which again was something culturally that we were taught, you know, that we put so much of ourselves, as you alluded to earlier in our in previous uh sessions, about we put so much into our work that we spend more time at work than we do at home, which is real. You know, you think it's a 24-hour day, and you're spending almost half or all 16 hours at work, right? But again, uh it's that that word balance continues to come in, not just as saying a work life balance, but just balance, period. So you don't get so caught, you don't go into such the tunnels and the holes of everything. You you just stay on the level to where what you had as an experience does not happen again, what I've had an experience does not happen again, and we kind of just stay even killed so that you don't go so, so deep uh that oh, I'm a Really can I'm really concerned about this person. I remember at one company, uh a young man had um, I guess he overspent, and I found this to be so interesting. He had overspent, and the company had given him advances on his checks. And I was like, in 2022, really? We're doing it. That sounded like something we would do back in the 70s, right? 60s. And he was like, yeah, advancing. Yeah, we we've given him a couple. I was like, and HR was okay with this. And I but see, there's that family mentality because you're thinking you could borrow money. And you know what? It came to bite them in their behind. Because not only did he come back asking for it again, but then he couldn't understand why you wouldn't do it again. And then of course he felt some kind of way about it. Just like how your uncle or brother would do. Hey, you gave me$20 last time. What's the problem? And that's how he react. It's like you still haven't given me that 20 back. Exactly. Thank you. That's why I ain't giving to you is again. Exactly. It's just, it's just, it's so interesting. What what do you think happens? Uh what do you think actually happens when we have these kind of a middle, we've alluded to these middle conversations, but what do you really think happens when we have these uh middle conversations where um you know emotional levels go high, boundaries are crossed, uh, uneven expectations happen. What do you think uh happens in those types of ways when we are trying to build a family environment, a fair environment, but at the same time, these middle-of-the-road conversations are happening and we're trying to get them to see from a both sides standpoint.

Ryan Calkins 45:42

I think that's where it starts to get the blurred lines, and it's what I personally experienced. Um like I shared before, where the professional expectations became personal, um which just became very, very dangerous and unhealthy for me because it's just one of those things where it the like you mentioned, the the uneven expectations and like leadership, you know, expecting sacrifice from you while not providing the same sacrifice back. And it just it it all kind of like compounds and and builds uh uh on itself, you know. Um and like I mentioned before, eventually it it leads to to burnout and loss of of confidence in yourself to where you you feel trapped in your own self-worth, it just gets destroyed. And it's not just necessarily the the individual, but when it becomes a a problem within a company, it's it's more widespread and it becomes a larger cultural issue. And I think that's the the part where when you started talking about establishing the the boundaries and the expectations and the other things that we talked about is really the the the corrective piece to combat going down the the avenue where people feel this way, because when you set the boundaries, it it at least hopefully it it keeps people from overinvesting.

John Moore 47:33

Um and and that's a good point too. And because I was thinking about what is the healthier way to come out of that. We talked about the toxicity of family in the work environment. We talked about the triggering of possibly the word and what the word may trigger and what it may inspire. We talked also about um, you know, some of the the attributes of things that can happen. We talked about the middle of the road, but then when you think about, well, how do we solve it? You know, how do we, we talked about all the problems, we talked about all the toxicities, we talked about, you know, the imbalance and awards of balance, but then how do we solve? How do we solve at the end of the day? You know, what how do we solve it to the point where you and I, you both describing how we felt afterwards, but how could we do it better where we don't feel that way? What do you think? And it's a part of the employees part too, it's not just us.

Ryan Calkins 48:27

It is. I I think for me, what I've learned is both as a leader and an employee, is that you can care about people without calling it a a family or trying to force camaraderie when maybe it you're the only one that wants it, you know? And I I I think not overinvesting your self, at least emotionally in relationship building is the safest way to at least safeguard yourself and then operating within the the the culture and then the team that exists, even if they they you know use the the the family terminology, not falling for the the the family trap, I guess, i if you will, and just being mindful of what you're giving and knowing that the expectations need to be tempered.

John Moore 49:39

Or be in line with, you know, you you bring that up. Uh the the over the the overinvestment uh is is a big piece too as well. And I think it's it sometimes can be hard, but I think once you've had enough wisdom, it becomes more realistic. Um, then you also talked about um, which triggered me as well, talking about where people don't want the same that you want. You know, you may want to, again, I'll use the word love on them, you know, show them well, give them, you know, whatever, whatever, and they're not feeling the same thing. You gotta be okay with that. You know, you're gonna have to be okay, meaning me. You have to be okay with that. That everybody doesn't want the same of what you may want for them, or what even you may want for yourself for them, you know, because sometimes what we're doing also is self-serving because we do want to see, you know, we want to be a part of seeing someone's growth. Um, so sometimes we got to really take a look at ourselves and say, okay, what is this really about? Is it really about them or is it more about us trying to belong, trying to be a part of something, trying to be a part of family? Because I really wasn't. You know, are we trying to create an environment that we're missing from somewhere else? You know, we got to even get to nuts and growth, you know, nuts and bolts of that. Are we actually doing this more for them or are we doing it more for ourselves? But then there was another thing you said, which was about like um, it was something more about the community building, or it was about um uh uh uh building relationships and things like those are things we were taught to do. So you gotta also remember that too. We were literally taught to, you know, build relationships with our staff. You know, we gotta, I mean, which makes total sense, you know, like you were talking about the older guys and you, you know, they were older than you, they had wisdom. You had to find that balance to build those relationships. Those are things we can't get rid of. Because to this day, you have got to get the buy-in from your employees because you're coming in as a newbie, they don't know what you can do or what you can't do. Are you gonna be a delegator? Are you gonna be a guy who works with us? You know what? So you got to get the buy-in, right? So there's so many different facets of this, and this is why I really like this topic, because it's not just about the term and terminology of family, it's about what it represents. And is it only of one that represents to the cut to not say to the customer, I'm sorry, but to the employee, or does it what it represents to us? That's the deep part about it. Is it something that we're missing within us that we're trying to get from our staff to fulfill our own lack? That's deep right there. That could be a whole nother episode. That's deep right there. That that that's deep right there.

Ryan Calkins 52:24

Yeah, I I guess for for our listeners, our our our question for for you would really be have you ever felt pressure because of uh a family culture language that that a company had that you joined. And if there's any because John John talked about boundary setting before, if there, if there's any boundaries that you've had trouble setting yourself or or were hesitant to that maybe later you did it and you know had some positive results, we'd love to hear about those too. So please comment and engage. We'd love to talk. And yeah, I mean, in closing, we really just want to let you know that you don't need a a workplace family. You know, you need a a workplace that that respects you and one that you can bring your own self-respect to.

John Moore 53:20

Um you shouldn't seek this is the that end statement. You should not seek those affirmations in that environment. Because that's that's when you have to go inside yourself and identify who am I, why am I really seeking this? Is it because I'm trying to seek something that I'm not getting from somewhere else? And now, since I have control, so I feel over this, I'm trying to get that from this group. Well, that's not the place to do it. And nor is it fair to implement something to them that they're not really wanting to be a part of. And I think I fall guilty for that. Yeah, that was good.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

Yeah, no, that's a that's a clean close right there. Yeah. Until next week, leading ain't easy. But you don't have to do it by yourself.

Ryan Calkins 54:05

Thanks for tuning in to leading ain't easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit reframerise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's Refraimerise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bus Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.