When Your Best Employee Keeps Asking for a Promotion

When a high performer keeps pushing for a promotion, the easy instinct is to either reward the performance or buy time. But Ryan Calkins and John Moore get into why both of those can backfire, and what's actually underneath a promotion decision that's harder to put on paper.

What Ryan and John explored:

• The gap between measurable performance and readiness — Why hitting every item on the checklist still doesn't mean someone is prepared for the next level, and what most managers struggle to articulate when the answer is "not yet"
• The checklist problem — Why sharing a task-based checklist with an ambitious employee can create more problems than it solves, and how to frame development around capabilities instead
• Inheriting a promise — John's experience walking into a role where a promotion was already "expected" by a team member, and how he navigated earning his own judgment about it
• The benching analogy — Why being held back in a role is actually a development opportunity, and what gets lost when people leave instead of growing through the hard part
• When honesty has limits — The tension between telling someone the real reason you won't promote them and operating within the guardrails that real workplaces require
• Promoting someone you don't trust or don't like — One of the hardest situations in leadership, and the honest story of a time John did it anyway

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

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Transcript

Ryan Calkins 0:00

Leading ain't easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, John Moore. As we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't: the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy. And it was a subject that was suggested by a listener that we found to be pretty interesting. I know I've been on both sides of it where it felt like a carrot was being dangled and it was just this never-ending uh changes trying to reach the next level. But I've also been on the other side in a managerial position where it's trying to temper expectations by somebody that that was undoubtedly a high achiever, but was was trying to promote too fast with the without learning the foundational aspects. So that's really what we want to focus on today.

John Moore 1:36

Absolutely. And also the the leader's role with navigating and directing them and not allowing them to direct themselves uh and almost to the point of demise in a sense, because they can overwork themselves, they can take on too much projects. Uh trying to be an overachiever can also lead to burnout, and we don't want that to happen as well. So we're gonna also talk about that.

Ryan Calkins 1:58

Yeah, and and one thing that that I was able to really coach somebody about was I mean, she was phenomenal and knocked everything out of the park, you know, and there were so many people that was like, oh, we should promote her, we should promote her. I'm like, well, maybe we should, but maybe we shouldn't. Like the last thing that you want to do is promote somebody too fast and they get into a position that they're unprepared for, they're overwhelmed, they crash out, burnout, whatever. And then it it has an adverse effect of what you wanted because yeah, they do show promise, absolutely. But do they have all the foundational knowledge and everything else that they need to be successful at the next level? And that's part of uh the problem is everybody, you know, yeah, I'm I'm doing amazing at what I'm doing right now with these specific tasks. But how how much have you done and how how knowledgeable are you and the the inner workings with everything else that you should have prior to moving up?

John Moore 2:52

I agree. And then also, too, it's about I think mastering what you initially came in to do and did you master that and and identifying uh that we tap into reviewing and reviews. Hey, have we mastered that before we go to the next level? And again, an employee feels like they need to be promoted, but I think from the manager's standpoint, we need to be able to evaluate them to see if they are in that potential of promotion, right? And not dangle it as a carrot, not use it as a motive or motivator, but use it more of this is what is awarding you because you have mastered or accomplished the goals, right? And what we find in some cases, like you were explaining, the dangling of the carrot, you have some that are overachievers where they just take over their uh navigation of their career goals, of their own career goals, but not thinking about the business goals. Uh, we as the leaders need to make sure that you hone them in and you guide them appropriately. Because sometimes uh an employee can very well map their own chart and think that they have it and that they should go that way, but that might not be what the direction of the company wants them to do.

Ryan Calkins 4:07

Right. I mean, people get stuck on the idea of a checklist, right? And they're accomplishing everything on their checklist. So they're like, well, I did all 10 things that were listed here, but that's only the the measurable items, which doesn't account for uh the last episode that we did touched on soft skills, and and part of it may be your interaction with your team and and your ability to not necessarily delegate, but but interact with with people at all levels, and just having that there, there's like intangible things that aren't necessarily measured or measurable that you can put on a checklist. And I think getting into the checklist piece is problematic, and it's what I fell victim to my myself. It's like I did everything that you've asked me to. What else do I need to do? And I think for some people, it's hard to say, I don't think you're ready personally, or or maturity isn't where we need it, or whatever it is the case, I think when it starts to become things beyond the the clear measurables, it's more, you know, manager intuition, or or maybe it's just not a right fit and they don't know how to explain it. So, how do you avoid operating on a checklist, which becomes problematic for both sides?

John Moore 5:26

I think that I'm gonna disagree with you just a little bit. I think that it's okay to have an internal checklist. I don't think that there should be one that the manager and the employee has because the employee is gonna hold you to that, just like you just alluded to. Like when I do career pathing, here are the things that we need to do to get you to the next level. Okay, so that those are formal because if you're saying, you know, this is where you're trying to go, well, here are some of the things we need to do. But also, to your point, there has to be a form of flexibility that says, all right, this is not the only thing that it takes for you to move. It takes relationship building, trust, it takes, you know, level of maturity, talk to those other things as well, which are part of that promotion. So let's say you're going from not leading a group of people to leading a group of people. Well, you have to be trained up to lead a group of people. You have to be trusted enough to lead a group of people, right? You have to be able to know you can develop good relationships with other persons. So all those things are key foundations to it. And we don't want to put those on a checklist to say, okay, did you build relationships with John? I mean, that's crazy. It's about observation. It's about, you know, the know-how. It's about seeing a person mature on their own. So that's why, you know, when we set somewhat of goals or accomplishments or let's say career paths, we don't like to put time frames on it too much because we really want it to be based upon accomplishments, growth, you know, things that are that are not necessarily so structured, then things that are structured. So you have to kind of have a balance between the two. What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 7:07

No, I I think that that's accurate. I think that sometimes having ambitious employees that that are high achievers are often harder to manage and supervise than ones that are underperforming because you're trying to not only manage their expectations, but you're trying to control everything and you and you have more than just them to consider, right? You have the entire team dynamics. Or, you know, maybe you are doing everything that you need to do, but me promoting you right now is bad for the team because somebody else thinks that they deserve it or or whatever else, you know. So you're balancing more than just that individual. If it was just a matter of, oh, John's not getting this out of the park, I could promote him, no big deal. You know, unlimited resources and everything else, great, promote away. But there's a there's a lot that you're trying to balance in terms of keeping this person satisfied while not upsetting somebody else. And I'm not saying that that needs to be a determining factor where you're always going to have somebody that's upset that they didn't get a promotion. That I don't mean that I'm not going to promote you because somebody else will be upset. It's just more, there's a lot more that goes into a decision to promote or something else than simply you're hitting the the work. And maybe it's a matter of, yeah, this quarter you hit it, but I need to see consistency. You know, you need to hit that same level for who knows, two quarters, three quarters, four, whatever it is. Um, and define the reasons behind that. Go ahead. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, absolutely. And it's just uh it's trying to to temper their expectations, but also encourage the the performance to to continue because you don't want them to get disgruntled and stop performing and then silent quit or straight up quit or whatever it is, but you don't want a high performer to to stop performing because they're providing to it, right?

John Moore 9:05

You know, it made me, as you were talking, it makes me think about when I had uh worked for this healthcare, healthcare company and I inherited a staff. And as I inherited the staff, there was also, this is a very good point, preconceived notions about who should be promoted to be the need, the next lead or supervisor, right? And so a lot of those times that could be what someone else thought that, you know, they should be. But now you're looking at it like I don't know if they are, you know, leadership material. Well, in this particular case, this was a leadership material, which was good. Uh, and that this person did meet all of those areas that I was also looking for, too. So it was an easy promotion, right? But also, the the part of the employee was she knew I was new, that she had to get the buy-in from me, that even though she had gotten it from everybody else, now here's a new manager, and she felt like she had to restart all over again. And it did take some time. And the things that I mentioned yes earlier, trust. I had to make sure I could trust her. Because if you're gonna be under me, I need to feel like I can trust you. You're gonna be loyal. I needed to get that sense of it. And I think it was almost a year, you know, before I moved her into that role, maybe a year, a little bit less than a year. Um, but the goal was is that I didn't just want to do it because I inherited her and that statement was inherited. I wanted to make sure that this was gonna be a good fit, right? And it also talks to the intent, not only, you know, validating it from my standpoint, but also validating it from her standpoint, right? And it was interesting because she was able to understand my pushback. Because I wasn't immediately saying, okay, yeah, I'm ready to do it. I said, give me time. And I've done that continuously. Another um uh organization you and I worked with, I did the same thing. I didn't immediately just bring somebody up. I took time. I wanted to get to know the person. And that's something that has to be really spoken upon and communicated with that employee. Because just because they think that someone else promised them something and now there's new leadership that is supposed to automatically happen, you need to, and it's and it's the worst situation because it could go good or it can go bad, because the other person may not like you for various reasons, right? Uh, and you may not like them as the employee for various of reasons, right? So it's a hard position to put people in, but it's one in which does happen and we have to be open and adapted to it. I do want to pose this question. Do we find it more that this topic, which I really enjoy, is more difficult now in this generation than it would have been in our generations or our our parents' generations before us? What do you think?

Ryan Calkins 11:50

I think the it's probably harder now because the loyalty to the company and to everything else historically, it's like, yeah, you probably dealt with disappointment, but it job hopping wasn't. I mean, I'm I don't want to say it wasn't socially acceptable, it just wasn't as common as it is now. And and I feel like now it's like real, it wasn't socially accepted.

John Moore 12:18

Be real, it wasn't. Back in our day, job hopping, going from place to place, they always inquired, why did you go to so many different jobs? Why did you you remember in the interview? So say, I see a lot of movement. So yeah, it wasn't acceptable. Where now, three, five years, you're out. Go ahead, please. I'm sorry.

Ryan Calkins 12:34

I just well, no, I just it it I I think about it like in in terms of sports and other things, where you know, a player thinks that they deserve playing time, they deserve this, they deserve that. And you have a coach, it's like, well, you could, but your attitude sucks. This sucks. And it it, you know, you would get benched and come back stronger, hopefully, or you would wash out, you know. And now it's like to stay in the in the coaching and sports analogy, it's with free reign and and free agency in college, it's like you bench a player, he leaves and goes to a different school. And it's the same thing with with jobs. It's like you want to help people develop and push them to be better. But if they get disgruntled, they don't stay and work through the challenge and develop. They hop ship and find you know another avenue. And maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't. They likely you know they'll leave, get a raise somewhere else, but it the core issues that were holding them back at this role usually hold them back at the next role. And then they jump to the next job and they might get a little raised, but they're still having the the same issues and problems. And I think that piece of it can be problematic because the the growth and maturity in professional development often gets lost in in the shuffle of of moving from job to job. So, and your your mention of you know, it was promised by a prior manager, maybe it was, or maybe it was that person's perception of a promise. But I've also seen it to where managers will make a or allude to it being a certainty when they never really had the intention of doing it because they want to keep that person productive. And and like I mentioned at the the beginning of the show, continuing to dangle that carrot to get just enough out of a person to keep them engaged and and striving for it, even though they never intended at all to put that person in in the next position.

John Moore 14:26

Yeah, and it's funny you bring that up because I don't I I I felt a little bit of that, but then when I came into that company, they said, you know, we did promise for that. And it was almost as if we we want you to continue to go in that direction, but it's your final decision, you know, as to what? So I use that for that purpose. I use it to evaluate and to make sure that, you know, that was a a good match for us. And and luckily it it became. I want to go back to your other statement, which was quite interesting too, about the leaving or the the the sports the sports analogy, uh, that you get benched. And I thought, because I'm not a sports kid, but I thought that the benching was a form of teaching, training, teaching moments, team moments for you to sit, rest, observe, become more in tune, so that therefore you most likely would get back in and you play the game, you'd be the team player and all those wonderful things. Well, nowadays it's like F you, I'm not gonna be benched. It's like I'm gonna go to another team or I'm gonna find another job. But what I think happens also in those opportunities, they lose the opportunity. There's an opportunity in being benched. I don't know sports, but I do know this from what I've observed is that you are you are building something, you are seeing something, you are observing something, you're learning something while you're being benched. It's not that you're just being benched to be benched. It is for a process. There's a learning that's to be done. And the same for why we're not promoting you immediately, because you're not ready, right? You still need to learn team building, you still need to learn leadership skills, you still need to learn being on time, you still need to learn, you know what I'm saying? And I think that that's where unfortunately this generation loses that because we want instant gratification. We want now. And that comes from a whole nother topic, which is from where parenting never gives the boundaries of saying no, right? And the no component really puts a place in mind of no means no, or no means not now, or no means maybe later on, right? Where for them it's like if I'm saying no, it feels like I'm not gonna ever get it. So I'm gonna make it happen. And then to your other point, you say it may or may not work out, and sometimes it does, and then sometimes it doesn't. Um, I think the benching analogy really creates character in a teammate and also in an employee because it allows for them to sit back, learn, watch, observe, and become better. What do you think?

Ryan Calkins 17:00

It does. And I think the the biggest growth opportunities for people are in times of adversity and struggle, you know, and overcoming those challenges. And when you bounce an escape to something else to continue doing what you're doing rather than heading that adversity straight on, it's like that opportunity for growth eludes you. And one of the main problems is people, like you said, or or at least uh alluded to was that people want certainty. And as a leader, you just and and a manager, you can't guarantee anything, right? You have to be as transparent as possible, but also respectful. And I think that's part of the problem that I talked about before is you you have the the easily measurable, you know, you must hit this dollar amount, the this amount of project hours, whatever it is, you can put those on paper. But if I tell you, I need you to improve your EQ and your relationship building and how your executive presence, whatever it is that that is there, it's like those things aren't necessarily measurable, at least to put on paper for you to say, oh yes, I achieved it. Because it's really on the person that is viewing you and your behavior and your interactions for them to say, yeah, I think John has been consistent in this area to where I'm now comfortable.

John Moore 18:27

Absolutely. Um I think that's I think that's such a valid point. And it also makes me think of another point too. It goes back to what I alluded to briefly about intent. It's about figuring out why the person really want to be promoted, right? Is it really about, you know, wanting to be in leadership or wanting the next level in their career? You know, is it really more internal or is it more in the tangible? Is it more the financial? Oh, I just want the money. So do you want the money, but then you don't want to be invested as to what the job wants or what the job needs, right? There's there's something there that we have to make sure that there's a true balance in it because a lot of people are driven by the financial aspect of promotions, right? Not just the expansion of responsibility, expansion of leadership or whatever other you know, crits that come along with it. I think sometimes people get more vested in the money. And don't get me wrong, yes, we we we know we have to, you know, pay bills and all that good stuff, but we should not allow that to be our frontal lobe lead. It should be more of I want to enhance myself, I want to grow, I want to expand myself, expand my knowledge, right? And if the money, of course, is another component, yes, of course, great, but I really want the other opponent too. And we just find that sometimes salary growths are more important than it is of the intellectual growth or the responsibility growth as well. Have you seen that in your, in your um, in your your experiences?

Ryan Calkins 19:56

No, I have. And I mean, obviously there's different motivators for everybody, right? Some people want more pay, some people want the titles, some people think that they can make a difference there. Some of it is ego or competition with with peers, and they're saying, oh, you know, I'm doing, I do my work so much better and faster than John does. Like I should be his manager or whatever it is. But going back to the the maturity piece, it's it's how do you balance the fast growth that somebody you know wants or or believes that they deserve based on their technical uh prowess versus what makes a a sustainable leader and somebody that is ready to promote I I think the challenge sometimes is that people get lost in we we talked about this before, where sometimes like when I when I worked with a a lot of engineers in in project management, it's they are very, very efficient and well at the technical piece of what they're doing, right? And I'm not saying this is all engineers, but I I I think it it's symbolic of of of an engineer. Well, engineers, but also people that that are very uh proficient in what they do, right? And you come into a role, you knock it out of the park, it may be easy. Maybe, maybe the role itself was too easy for you. You know, you come in as an analyst or whatever. But if you're missing the the leadership component of it, that takes time to develop. And and we talked about where you don't want to rush somebody in into the next level. How do you? I mean, I I I guess you you you set forth a anticipated timeline, right? Yes. In a year, we'll we'll revisit it. I need you to hit these things. In the meantime, I I think in in in some conversations I've had, even in my own career, what doesn't happen is that you know, the there there may be a I need you to continue to hit these numbers for. For the next year. But it's not like, or, or it'll be referencing, oh, I want you to improve your executive presence or I want you to develop leadership skills. But there's no like, these are the leadership skills I'm looking for, this is the type of stuff I'm looking for. And there's no like development plan that hits these things on top of the measurables that you're really accountable to. So, you know, if they want you to get better at public speaking and engagement, it's like, oh, well, you know, I suggest taking Toastmasters or let me know how that goes or take this course and really starting to expand what the training opportunities and development opportunities look like for staff to put them in the best position to succeed and hit the things that you want to. Yes, sometimes those occur and people knock all of that training out on top of the measurables, and they still feel like they're getting railroaded because at the time maybe the position doesn't exist or it's not available even if you're ready. So, like there are other factors that keep people from uh an immediate promotion. Um, or or sometimes, you know, you have the instances where the the position before you is vacant and you are taking on additional duties that are also a lot of the duties of the person ahead of you, and then you get passed up for it and people feel slighted. And there's a lot that goes into that as well, you know, and you can't forget the political element that also can hinder you.

John Moore 23:33

Absolutely. Um, it's funny, uh as you you're talking, I'm just thinking of so many different scenarios with clients I currently have, uh friends that have gone through this. But one thing that you one of many things you said, but this one stood out too, is it the no guarantee component. There's so many things that can happen that are outside of our control as leaders. We can have uh mergers, we can have uh uh layoffs, we could have budget cuts, we could have uh someone to come in and do a consultant on a Six Sigma and they have lien processes come in to where we're alleviating this role and now we're gonna, you know, lean and bring everything real tight. I mean, multiple things can happen that we're preparing a person for something, and then it could change just like that. And I think that that honesty has to be translated to as well. Of course, we're not trying to see that to happen, but those are unforeseen things that can happen. That's one thing that you made me think of. Another thing you made me think about was the sense of somebody like being ready and being efficient for the job. And for me, I was thinking about what I've seen in my 30 plus years of being incorporated in some shape or form, of how I've seen them say, you know, two years is our mark. Because two years was really a rate, was really a kind of a good model to use to get everything that you needed to accomplish, right? That you got the training, that you got the the building, you have the relationship building, the trust, the honesty. Because within a six-month time, I really can't get that. You know, within a year's time, I'm just feeling comfortable, right? So if I'm at least giving myself a year, year and a half, two years, I should be pretty solid to move myself up. And that has been a model that I've even used myself, depending on, you know, the demand of the business, because that's another thing that also can uh accelerate or uh not accelerate the movement is the the movement of the business. It's multiple factors that can say this is why we can elevate, this is why we cannot, this is the model that we use, this is the model that we don't use. I mean, there's multiple things there. And I just think the transparency, back to your statement, should be there. If we don't have transparency telling them what to look forward to, then we're gonna be in a bad situation because they're gonna have their hopes driven, thinking they're gonna get it. This is gonna happen based upon these criteria, and then it doesn't happen, and it'll be feeling like how you felt, or maybe how many others feel as well when promised these roles. And then another one more point I wanted to say, thank you for bringing back to my memory, is generationally, when we're in this this new culture, is the quick turnover. So that's another reason why we don't want to promote quickly because we don't know how long you're gonna stay. Yeah. We invest so much in you, and then there's another shiny object and you're gone. So there's another reason that we don't immediately want to just move someone up, is because not necessarily generational, but cultural, all those factors will see and say, okay, I don't think you're ready. Because you look like you're one foot in, you're one foot out.

Ryan Calkins 26:55

No, one of my one of my best friends currently is in a position where the CEO of that company is hesitant to provide training and promotions to staff because they get it and then they leave for higher paying jobs. But it it's like a it's a government entity, but there's uh like a private component to it. I don't know exactly what what the structure is, but obviously, you know, private pays more than than public, right? So people are getting skills, getting this, getting that, and then they leave for a higher paying private role. And he's struggling because he is excelling in the position that he's in, but the opportunities that he keeps, you know, bringing forth and asking for these chances to grow and develop, he's been there, I think, three years now. So I mean, it's there. Yes. But she is hesitant to provide that training for people out of fear that they'll leave. And it's like, and that's not like you're only holding your own team and department back by doing that.

John Moore 28:09

But either way it goes, they'll find a way.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

Yeah.

John Moore 28:12

And it's funny you bring that up. I won't mention the name of the company, but in in here in California, the same thing happened because it it wasn't it was the training. Specifically, they were teaching a certified course. I can say this part of it, which is Epic, and they were training everybody on Epic. And what was happening was they weren't paying them the best, so they would learn Epic and they would leave. They would learn and they would leave. So then what happened was this company says you have to be here for a certain amount of time. And if you're not, I think they signed a contract. Forgive me if I'm not saying it correctly, but they designed something. They were not going to be there for a certain period of time, they had to pay back the investment of the schooling or education that they had given them in Epic, because Epic is a big deal. And it's a big uh resume builder, it's a big job opportunity. If you know how to do it, you can make good money. And so they were finding that people were learning and they were out. They were learning and they were out. So yeah, but that's not fair. You know, if you're gonna offer something, you're gonna offer something. But it also, if you're gonna offer something, offer it to the point that it is uh the same that's what's happening in the industry. So you don't lose people, right? So you don't lose them, you keep them. You know that you keep them motivated because you don't want to give somebody something and then they leave. You have to start looking internally as to why would they leave? What's what's happening in the business?

SPEAKER_04 29:33

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 29:46

And I started thinking about an interaction that that I had had before, at least a learning experience I had, where in trying to be transparent and open, I was providing too much information in terms of of kind of uh detail and over-explanation to where it was it was starting to hinge more on pushback in the form of negotiation and debate. And it's like, well, we're not here for debate. And I well, I I I guess I had to find the right balance between being too ambiguous to where they didn't understand what was going on and not being so detailed in why that it started to become a back and forth. It's like, well, this this is what I need to see, this is how we need to see it. This it's it's not a debate. Like I'm telling you what needs to happen.

John Moore 30:35

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I want to go back to one of the things you brought up earlier and that I kind of glazed over because it was important, which is the checklist. You know, the checklist between the leadership and as well as the employee. You know, we have this checklist about, you know, is it about speed, work, work, or is it about the depth of the employee? Is it the speed in the employee or is it the death of the employee? Does the employee have the knowledge? Uh, is it about control or is it about trust? You know, when we look at those factors, you know, is it is it about career growth? Is, you know, again, you mentioned the the uh the intent. Is it about uh leadership tapping into additional knowledge or leadership traps? You know, we got to figure out these different things because we find that sometimes when we have uh a list, if we will, quote unquote, um, who's really keeping track of the list? Where does the list really have its importance? You know, who's identifying the balance between the lists, who's being more realistic, uh, who's coming back at the list and saying, okay, you met these markers, but you still and, right? It's it's that funny kind of uh structure, unstructured way. But I don't care what anyone says, there's still a structure that needs to be there to give an employee uh an understanding as what's needed to grow. But at the same time, it's not so firm that we can't say, don't forget about relationship building, don't forget about honesty and trust, don't forget about, don't be so um boastful and so prideful that you can't take feedback and things like that, because all of that is within the growth stage. And it also shows that you will be a good leader because if you could take feedback, that means you can give feedback. So a lot of you know, growth in that, let's say, checklist component too, it's also there too. What are your thoughts about that?

Ryan Calkins 32:30

Well, sticking with with the with the checklist thing, um like you have to have a checklist of sorts, right? Because you need to know what people are being measured by. Yes. And I I guess we keep talking about measurables, and and maybe the way to look at it is is not having a checklist tied to tasks where people can say, yep, I've done that. It's more capabilities and what people are are capable of. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but really that that that's what it's looking at. And and when it comes to capabilities, it it's it's harder to measure, right? But you have to, the person has to be comfortable in the fact that you are capable of doing all of these things. And yes, it's on you to prove to them that you fill all of these needs and you're capable of doing them. But again, I mean, there's some situations where it's just not going to matter what you do. Like maybe you work for me and I just don't like you, or I don't trust you. You're a solid member of my team and you produce, but I don't trust you to step into the next level and serve in that capacity. So am I honest with you and say, John, I don't trust you. You're never going to be a supervisor under me. Or do I continue to say, yeah, you know, we'll reassess again in six months and see where you're at. Just keep plugging.

John Moore 33:59

Well, see, and I think, hmm. And that's what's so sad about where we are sometimes, is that you can't be honest because that kind of honesty would put us into the HR realm of saying, you know, I don't trust you, so that's why you can't move forward, right? But then it's an honest statement. To be honest with you, if you have observed an employee that has gotten into so many different scenarios, so much drama within the work environment, but they're excellent at their work and their workload, but their social skills, uh, interactive skills, their team skills are sucks out loud, but they want to elevate. Well, this is still a hindrance. So there's a way in which you identify that. It's it's sad that sometimes you just can't be honest like we need to be, because sometimes I think that honesty really does help a person to really mold or grow. Because when someone says I can't trust you, it should immediately say, Well, what did I do? And then you should be able to say, Well, here are the things in which I've observed that makes me feel untrusting of you, right? And then, you know, until I can feel more uh a form of trust and form of ability to let you just go and run, I feel like these things need to be met. Now, I remember, as I was saying that, I do remember hearing leadership say things to that magnitude, but just being able to say, I don't trust you, yeah, it was kind of I would love to say that. I don't trust you. I've I've seen you. I've seen you, you know, without people, you know, watching you for a specific role. And I I've heard what you said, and yeah, I get worried. I don't think that you would be a good leader over a group of people. And that's that's uh it's kind of a bad thing in a sense where you can't be honest. But on the other hand, I know that's why HR is there is so that we therefore we have our guardrails and we have our balance, and I appreciate that. But I also think we miss the goal sometimes in not just being honest with employees uh within framework, of course, to let them know what's really real.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

Yeah. And I mean, and we talked about it before, but you can only control what you can control, right?

Ryan Calkins 36:07

So as an employee, you can control how you show up, the things that you do, everything that you bring to the table. You know how how you operate as an employee. What you can't control is what other people do with that. You can't force somebody to promote you, right? But as a leader, you also can control the promotions and the other things that you do, and you can't control how somebody will respond to the information that you give them or the or the decisions that you make. And you have to operate within those decisions, you know, and you handle the outcome as as it happens. Like you can try to mitigate it with anticipating the likely scenario and outcome of a decision that you make, but you're still managing to what that outcome is.

John Moore 36:54

You know, it brings up one more thing before we close. I was thinking about this as you were talking, and I'm asking the question because I I kind of feel like I know my response to it. But how do you deal with a scenario where there's a personal component to it, right? That you really don't want to promote this person because professionally as well as personally, you don't care for them. And that's real. We're human beings. We gotta, we gotta be real about this. You know, you've observed them, you've seen them for a number of periods of time. They're really not able to meet the course of what we think that they're supposed to be met at, or what we have um developed our company or our teams at, and then we're gonna just release them to a person that we really don't trust, we don't believe in, we really don't think they can do the job, but in their mind they can. Are we holding them back for our own personal scenarios, or are we holding them back because they really can't do the job?

Ryan Calkins 37:55

It could be a little bit of both. I I think as an employee, I was in a situation where I was in upper management and there was a CEO of a company that I worked for, and we kind of butted heads a little bit in terms of of what we thought on certain things. And I had a conversation with him. We're talking about trust. I let him know that I didn't trust him and why. And I thought that that honesty would would help in building a relationship, and it felt like it did for about two and a half years. And then in an annual review, you know, we were talking about potential ownership and stuff. And he's like, Well, why would I want a partner that doesn't trust me? And I'm like thinking, that was a conversation we had two and a half years ago. You think I haven't developed trust for you over two and a half years when we've been actively working together? And, you know, I've been continuing to promote within this company. And it just, I was like, you've been sitting on like thinking of myself, like you've been sitting on that and harboring resentment for two and a half years, and you wait to talk about it then. And I was just like, man, that's when honesty really backfired. But for me as a leader, having to manage people that I didn't like, um, we had an episode on managing people that that you don't like, but what I what I've always tried to do is focus on the aspects of them that I don't like. Like if it's usually it for me, it most of the time when I don't like somebody, it's observing how they are with other people and how they will step on others to try to get ahead, or they're just rude and only they're just self-centered people. So I always try to build in a leadership development component that focuses on that skill building and empathy and just being respectful, not in a way that says, oh, you know, I I don't know how to describe it, but not like trying to do it in a way that doesn't attack their character, but helps them focus on the development skills that I need them to have. Because if I just sit there and I'm like, well, I don't like John, I'm never gonna help him get better. I'm setting us both up for failure because I have you who is never going to get to where I need you to be, but you're also gonna continue to be disgruntled because you're not getting what you want, right? Which is a potential promotion. So what I've always tried to do is whether or not I like the person, try to help them focus on the developing the skills that I need that is really the basis for my dislike for them or the thing that they're doing.

John Moore 40:42

And for me, I definitely promoted the person that I did not care for, and it did still backfire. And if I would have followed my first frame of mind, I would have never had to go to the experience that I went through. So it's it's like a catch-22. You do you want to go personally and feel that way about you know the movement and the growth? Or do you want to just let it happen and you deal with what it happens? It's the most hardest situation to be upon or to be in because you don't you you you you want to be fair, you know. You remember me saying that. That's my my whole thing about everything is I always want to be fair. I want to be fair. But at the same time, I did not want to promote that person. And it wasn't just personally, it was just kind of like they were not ready for that.

SPEAKER_03 41:33

Was this the person that you came in and they were promised?

John Moore 41:36

No, it's totally different. Oh, different. Okay. Totally different. Oh no, that one, she turned out to be a star. As a matter of fact, she still she has my role today. Oh nice.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

Yeah. Today. Outperforming what you did, or I'll cut you. You better cut it out.

Ryan Calkins 41:55

No, uh, so what what was it that, I mean, if if you're comfortable talking about it, what was it that kind of gave you hesitation that you ultimately decided to ignore and and promote anyway?

John Moore 42:06

Well, one, we were, it was kind of the scenario of we needed to have, we were breaking teams up into two separate teams, so we needed to have leads, right? And so he was grand property and he was already there for so long. And also he was underpaid. Me being fair, he needed to be brought up because he had had this role for so long and not making any money. So here I go with the soft part thinking, why is he not making any money? You know, he needs to be, he needs to be uh, you know, put up. Then, you know, hearing all these other attributes, but then my spirit, which is saying, and I'm pretty, have good discernment, was like, mm-hmm and I still did it anyway, and still got my ass. Uh, still did it. And here were all the factors that I was thinking about them, thinking about them, thinking about them, but they showed me they could care less about me, right? And so somebody says, Well, it's not about you, but it is because if I made their promotion about them, why can't I also identify how I would be beneficial about promoting someone, whether they be an asset or whatever it may be, right? So it was, it was disheartening. But those are those are sometimes the stories that we have. We have good and we have bad stories about, you know, making those decisions that we wish that we didn't. We have some that we we glad that we did, and we have some that we wish that we didn't.

Ryan Calkins 43:24

So when you're talking about making it about you, do you are you are you looking at it in a in a lens of like as a legacy of like people that you promote that that would not necessarily carry on as a a John disciple or something like that, but more it's like the success of people that you promote obviously is beneficial for you in the sense that, yes, I helped them get ahead and look how much they've grown and and developed. Is that kind of what you mean? Like when you made it about you?

John Moore 43:53

Absolutely. Um and then the way that I was mentored in corporate was that you wouldn't hire someone that would. Not uh, I don't want to say be in the image of you, but be of the same character of you, be in the same uh directive of you, someone you can be proud of, someone you're not gonna feel ashamed of that you promoted or took them to the next level. Um, so there, there is there's that personal because then your boss went in in this and in funny enough, in this situation, my boss was like, Well, you hired him. I didn't I told you you didn't have to hire him. You didn't have to literally said that to me. You did not have to promote him, but I gave him all the reasonings, which I just gave you. Well, he's underpaid, he's been here for so long. I would literally put myself on for him and still came back and it bit me in the ass. So, you know, it's it's it's one of those situations, yeah.

Ryan Calkins 44:44

I mean, I I I guess that kind of brings us to like uh a hard truth that that not everything works out. And and even if everything works out, like you have high performers that are going to leave anyway, you know. And I think it's just part of of leadership. Like, I don't know. The the way I've always tried to view it is regardless of the company I'm at, I always try to help people grow and develop. And if they leave and they're successful, that's still re a re you know representative of of me and helping to push them along. So I I guess I do understand the the pride factor in helping somebody else grow because you see how much they can develop and the things that they can do. And just knowing that that you were able to be a part of that and and help them is is great, whether they stay with you or they go and blossom somewhere else. But I guess that that's part of it as a leader is knowing that it's not failure if somebody leaves because they are still being successful and you still contributed to to that growth. Um, and it could just be a matter of maybe they outgrew the company or or or the role or whatever it is, and it was time to move on. And not everybody is a perfect fit and a career man, as they say. But he was a butthole. Just it.

SPEAKER_04 46:05

Well, not your person. He totally could have been a butthole. Yeah, mine was a butthole. Love it, love it.

Ryan Calkins 46:13

I guess it for for anybody that that that's out there listening, are you over-explaining any anything to people that that are struggling with not being promoted? And or are you overexplaining in a way to avoid discomfort and challenging conversations or or providing, you know, some truth bombs that may hurt? Mm-hmm.

John Moore 46:33

And if so, understand that there is that, and that sometimes we have to be honest. And then sometimes we we can't be as honest as we like to. There is a hindrance in that, but the thing of it is is that we know that being leaders is one of the most hardest things to do, and it's not for everybody. Everybody is not a leader, and that's okay as well.

Ryan Calkins 46:56

Yeah, and then I I guess for employees that that aren't necessarily managers and and leaders, um, I think are you trying to earn the the promotion or are you trying to control it, uh as John alluded to earlier?

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Good point. Good point, very good point, very good point.

Ryan Calkins 47:18

I I guess we can close on that note. Yeah, that's a good point. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 47:22

Until until next week, leading ain't easy. But you don't have to do it alone. See ya.

Ryan Calkins 47:29

Thanks for tuning in to Leading Ain't Easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit reframeRise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's ReframeRise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bus Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.