When Being the Bottleneck Is the Whole Problem

Most of us started our careers being told what to do. Some of us had bosses who yelled. Some had bosses who kept everything to themselves (every client, every process, every piece of institutional knowledge) because that's how they stayed necessary. Ryan Calkins and John Moore grew up in that world. This episode is an honest look back at how the Command & Control era worked, why it eventually didn't, and what actually changed.

They get into:

• Why command-and-control worked — it built structure, stability, and predictability, and the people running it weren't wrong that it got results. The question was always who paid the price.
• Knowledge as currency — the culture of gatekeeping wasn't just selfishness. It was survival. Bosses literally told employees that having the knowledge meant keeping the job. Ryan and John both saw what that did to teams.
• The hiring calculus nobody talks about honestly — experience vs. potential, what you're paying for vs. what you're actually getting, and why the right hire depends entirely on what you can afford to wait for.
• How the shift actually happened — not through some cultural awakening, but through burnout, work-life balance becoming a real conversation, and leaders who were running out of gas finally having to hand things off.
• The move from instructions to intent — what it looks like in practice when a manager stops giving directives and starts saying "come back with a solution."

Ryan ends with the question worth sitting with: Where are you still acting as the bottleneck, and what could your team decide without you, but currently doesn't?

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

Subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 

Follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram for clips, prompts, and behind-the-scenes updates. 

If this episode resonated, please leave a review as it helps more leaders find us.

Transcript

Ryan Calkins 0:00

Leading ain't easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, John Moore. As we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't: the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy. It did build companies, it did build strong leaders that replicated the same practices and continued to lead in the same manner. It did create stable environments and really a centralized kind of knowledge and foundation, but there was clear hierarchy and oftentimes could lead to slower transfer of information.

John Moore 1:26

And then what went wrong? And why did it change in our present tense as well? We're not seeing it as much now as we saw it before. So I wonder what changed. Did it change culturally? Did the people change? Did environments change? Did laws change that made it more less uh of that type of control of the control and command kind of era? I don't know. I think I'm interested to having that conversation with you and talk more about it.

Ryan Calkins 1:52

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, maybe part of it is is also just people, you know, wanting to have more of a voice. Like it's easier to just take directives and run with it. But when you want more, you know, you want a seat at the table and an opinion that that is heard.

John Moore 2:08

And but it also goes into the different types of people. You have one, briefly of what you described, which is one who wants to do more. They want they want to be leaders themselves. And you have some that like to be follows, they like to be led, right? So they're okay with the control and and that form of control and command era where they're just telling them do this, do this, do this, because they don't want to have that responsibility. But it seems like nowadays, everybody wants to be a leader. But then when you really get into the granial components of it, real life, one of my clients has said this, it's like, this is really hard. I was like, Well, what do we expect it to be? You know, being a leader is never really easy and it's not for the weak at heart. It really isn't. So I think he thought he was just gonna come in, I'm the manager, you're gonna do what I say do. And it was like, yeah, no, no. You're gonna have to like prove yourself to people, you're gonna have to work yourself up to it, and you're gonna learn the business for people to then respect you. And that's what I learned from that era of the command and control, is even though they didn't give us a lot of leeway to have our own autonomy, but there was a lot to observe from them to say that's the kind of leader I want to be. Not that strict, but that's the structure I like. You know, whatever those pieces we can pull, we can pull from it. What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 3:30

I agree. I I mean, early in my career, it it was the same. I mean, uh obviously my first real career was in the military, so everything was top-down and hierarchy-based. There wasn't a ton of room for taking initiative on things. I mean, there was some flexibility, but really it was a lot of of compliance-based uh rewarding and and recognition, I think. There was some flexibility to bring new things to the table, but obviously there's a lot of hoops you have to jump through in any bureaucracy. Um, how was it for you at the in the, you know, kind of the corporate world at that time? Was it the same where it was a lot of compliance rewarded?

John Moore 4:11

It wasn't necessarily compliance rewarded, it was more of a production type scenario. Uh the the industries I originally came from was mortgage lending, banking, and finance. So everything was geared on production money, um, bringing in clients, you know, closing deals. It was always that, right? So that was the way we were celebrated. If you did, well, yeah, you got that. Um, the compliance component was a whole separate piece. Then when I go into the medical world, right, same format, but different product. All right. Now how we're making our money is based on how we're interacting with our patients, how we're interacting with client bases, you know, that kind of thing, right? But then it did tap into some of the regulatory component because now we're governed by such. So same within the financial world, but you kind of know what you're doing, and it's less of that in the immediate of operations. It's more of that in compliance and regulatory and quality control.

Ryan Calkins 5:12

But also in the way that everything was handled back then, wasn't it still like a lot of, I guess not necessarily an emphasis and an appreciation for adaptability? It was kind of operating more within having, you know, uh uh, I guess, predictability and managers serving as kind of the gatekeepers where you had to kind of get permission in order to do things rather than bringing an initiative and having feedback or input on it.

John Moore 5:40

No, you're correct. I went off tangent on that. You're absolutely correct. It was more like that because we didn't have the autonomy back then. So you had to, if you had an idea, yeah, you could bring it to the boss, but most likely the boss wouldn't take the idea, or they would take the idea and say it was theirs, and then, you know, you acquiesced along with it and bitched behind the scenes and said, That was my idea. He took it. Now that happened as well. But yeah, it was of that same when you make me think of it that way. It was, it was of that same. But then also it was of the one I described. So it was a little bit of both, but I think the majority is to your point. The majority was to that. When I started getting more into it and visually seeing it, it was more lighter and it was going more into this 2000s phase of where we are now, which is really a cultural shock, to be honest with you. Come, you know, coming from an era that's nothing that looks like today is a culture shock.

Ryan Calkins 6:40

Yeah, I mean, I I guess it is looking back in retrospect. Yeah. Like for me, operating as an employee or, you know, somebody in the workforce then and now night, night and day. It it is night and day, but for me personally, it the environment is different, but my approach to everything is the same. And it was a major struggle then because I was always the kid that questioned everything. I wanted to know why we couldn't do something, why, why, why, why, why? And it didn't really stop when I was in the military and and things like that. Where it's like, well, why can't we do this? Yeah, because we've always done it this way. Well, why do we have to continue doing it this way? Oh, you the problem.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Oh, God.

Ryan Calkins 7:21

Oh, I was. And it's like, well, why do you always have to, you know, push back on everything? I'm like, because there's better ways to do things.

John Moore 7:27

Like, why can't we entertain it? And see, me, where I came from in that era, I was programmed. It was like we didn't question, we didn't ask questions that wasn't available for us to do uh at that time. And then when it became that it was, you still were hesitant because you knew you were you were programmed not to question. Literally. It was like, don't ask questions. You know, if you if it was another way to do it, it wasn't your decision to come up with the other way. Somebody else would do that. You just do this, put the peg in the hole, do what you said, you know, do what you're told to do and do it. Um, then coming into the 2000s, seeing that there were still people who did that, but then also you saw people who started to be empowered to bring ideas and just say, hey, why don't we try this? And then seeing the boss change. I remember, thank you, thank you, Spirit. I remember being at an Asian bank. And I remember there was a young man, uh, let's say he was 22, 23, might have been 21, maybe first job. And he was so good at uh analyzing data or data data. And I remember they just like took him under. They were like, here, do this, try this report. Oh, and everything he came up with, he just mastered it. So they just kept challenging him. And he would come up with ideas and different ways to do it. And you're thinking this big bank, you should know how to do this stuff. But he had just came out of college and he had just started rocking and rolling with it, and they used it. That was my first inkling of the shift because I started, I really saw a cultural shift not only in age, but also VPs, executive management saying, we don't have to always do it this way. We can do it that way. And he was efficient and the product was there. I think the money started coming in, was dealing with um delinquency, was dealing with delinquency. So they were trying to get uh the return on their investments, they were trying to get uh AR done. I think it was accounts receivable pieces done. Yeah, that's what it was.

Ryan Calkins 9:27

Well, there was also the emphasis and shift towards mandating college degrees and education as part of a prerequisite for work, right? Because I remember when I was entering the workforce, like a high school diploma or equivalent was still valued, where now it's like, oh great, you graduated from high school. When are you gonna be done with college?

John Moore 9:49

Or now that's shifting again, to be honest with you, because now we're finding, uh I think I heard this uh on one of the news programs that they were making it less of a mandate to get government jobs with a college degree. Because once you, I mean, once you look at this bigger picture of things, it should have been open. We we we saw a trend where it went high school, college, now college and equivalent. You remember seeing that? Equivalent experience. And now it's going again to another shift, which is like uh, what's your level of experience? Now AI is coming in. They want to hear more about that kind of stuff. It just really now depends. And it also depends, too, on your leadership. Me, when I hired people, I didn't look for degrees. You know what I look for? I look for the experience. I looked at when I was when I was strategizing, looking for an employee, I was looking to how long is it going to take me to get this person up to speed? So I needed for them to be ready and I needed them to have knowledge about training, at least foundated in training, so that therefore the curve would not be as long. So I didn't look at degrees and say, oh my God, you got to have this degree. I looked at how many years of experience did you have, let's say, in training.

Ryan Calkins 11:00

Well, see, so your preference was production over uh uh projection or or whatever.

John Moore 11:10

Absolutely. Because we were being held to that to think about it. We had to do a quick turnout. We had massive hirings and we had masses of uh nutrition as well. Right. So when you have that, you know, in out, in out, we got to be on it. We got to be ready to train those 30, 40, two-week long, three-week long trainings, right? And so you don't always have the opportunity to sit there and say, oh, it'll be great to have someone who has a degree and blah, blah, blah. Well, then also you have to see, and not to just, you know, disrespect anyone that has degrees out there or master's or any of that. But then I have to identify how is that equivalent to the work in which we're doing? Because in the work that you're doing at that moment may not need or determine you have that. I'm sorry, go ahead.

Ryan Calkins 11:54

No, no, you're you're fine. I I was I said projection and I meant potential. And so I'm looking at it like the same way as like the NFL draft, right? You draft players based on potential, most of them flame out and you have some that that hit big, right? But when you're hiring on production and somebody with a storied history of work, they also come with a much higher price tag, right? Absolutely. So you're trying to balance how much work history and and production somebody brings in at a price point that makes sense for both sides, which is a challenge in itself, when you could bring in not necessarily somebody younger, but somebody greener that would come at them at a much cheaper price point. So where you kind of balancing that piece of it.

John Moore 12:47

But then you still lose. Um, the the losses, unfortunately, is the up, the the uptime, getting them up to speed to be able to be functioning in that role, right? And so this is kind of where that you know command and control scenario comes in because you're giving them direct, this is what you have to do, these are the expectations, this is what we need you guys to do within a period of time, you know, focus on these areas. Even if I'm giving them, for an example, when I came into the training world over 20 something years ago, um, I was given six curriculums in six months. Six separate curriculums in six months. Some of them were four hours, some of them were two weeks. So the amount of content was great, right? Sometimes it was less, sometimes it was huge. I mean, we went from teaching uh escrow to customer service to collections, whatever, right? All in one class. Now, if I have a person who does, to your point, that is lower on the on the the level of experience, but I'm paying less, I lose because I'm not gonna have him up to speed in a 30-day time frame. I'm not gonna have him up to speed in 90 days. I'm gonna partially have him in six months. All right, especially if I'm hitting him with six curriculums in six months, right? So you got that. But then on the other side to your point, which I found interesting when you said it, it immediately made me think about East Coast, West Coast. Everything is driven by your degree. Oh, you gotta have degrees, you gotta have degrees, degrees, degrees, degree, degree, but then they pay you pennies. They're not really concerned with the degrees, depending on what you're getting into, they're not really concerned, and you'll get banged. It's a huge difference between the two. I remember my aunt going into mental health, and she went to go get her college degree. And when she got her college degree, she said she got 80 grand after she got her college degree. All right, that's great. That was back in that period of time, that was awesome. Why had another cousin get her master's fifty something thousand dollars? 50 something and her master's fifty something thousand dollars. And I said, wow. So you can come on the West Coast, you could you could double that. And that's what it happens. It's cultural, it could be geographical. I mean, so many different factors about, you know, you're I know I'm going on a tangent, but it just makes me think about the different factors of how you make the money, if I get someone less experienced, is it gonna be a win-win or win-lose? You know, all those different factors. If I pay him less, am I gonna get a lesser quality employee too? Am I gonna get someone who's less serious, who's not really vested? Because honestly, you pay what you get. You pay for what you get. What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 15:45

No, I I I don't disagree. I guess sticking kind of with the NFL draft and this and the sports piece, like you don't want to bring in the all-star quarterback because top dollar, right? And they're gonna be priced out anyway. You don't want to bring in a rookie because they're untested, you don't know what to expect. You're looking for kind of a veteran QB that knows enough and will warrant a certain amount of money. But so I okay, I I I guess I see. So you you've got this veteran that comes in with enough experience to where they're more or less a plug-and play that will have less onboarding time and acclamation. If they leave, so be it, because you can plug in another equitable person right away. So you're maximizing the time that they're there. But typically, when you bring in somebody younger that is less experienced, you potentially have them for a longer haul, right? Even though you're spending that first year or so getting them used to the role.

John Moore 16:49

Totally based upon the individual, right? Back when, probably when we both were working, that would be absolute, where people came in at 18 and they've been there, had kids, and all that through the same company that they're 30 years later, they're retiring from. Now the turnover is like three years, five years, I'm out. So, you know, you can invest in an employee, but their investment is not as long within the company. And then also, another thing makes me think about, and I think we talked about this too, about giving them something, right? Certificates, certifications, blah, blah, blah, and then they up and rooting and going somewhere else. You got that as well. But the good thing about, depending on where you are and what what you're doing in the training world and operations, if you got a good manager, they know how to pay their employees because we know what someone's knowledge is worth, to be honest with you. And if I know I can get somebody in and I can give them a course, let's say I start them off at a four, four-hour course, I can get them up to speed in two weeks. And they can start training that course probably by the end of that month. And if they're not training it, they're co-facilitating it. Next month, they're doing it. Then I add on, then I add on. You see, it's a it's a whole strategy to it as well. So, in in that world, yes, it works better that way. But you have a point as well, because you can go into other worlds where you want to get a newbie, you want to mold them, you want to grow them up and get them in there. But again, it's a gamble about getting that really vested person who wants a career. Um, remember, I told you about a client that she was like, I don't want to be like my mom. Your mom is making 300 grand. Yes, she worked her ass off, but she's making 300 grand. That's a good model to follow.

Ryan Calkins 18:41

True. And I'm I I guess the the point of all of this in the in the command and conquer idea is the younger you bring somebody in and the more green they are, in theory, the more impressionable they would be in an environment where you want to control the narrative and and how everything is operated. Until they get hooked on phonics.

John Moore 19:06

Until they get hooked on phonics, until they listen to the you know, the the mills of people, you know, chatting, and then they it changes. That's more now than it was then.

Ryan Calkins 19:17

Well, and it also, I mean, we talked or at least alluded to it a little bit earlier, where it was people really want ownership and and not to be controlled, and and high performers can really disengage and control heavy environments. So it just that approach to to hiring and everything else doesn't necessarily lend itself to today's work climate either.

John Moore 19:43

And then also it depends on the work climate. You know, are you talking about something that's um sales driven? That you just gave 100. But if it's operations, if it's production, if it's back office, it may run a little bit more tight of ship.

Ryan Calkins 20:02

Well, it it can, but like my background is an operation. I did it, you know, for almost 14 years. And a lot of it is yeah, there that you kind of have regimented practices because there's a lot of safety involved in, especially in the type of operation that I was involved in for solid waste. But there was also room for innovative uh approaches to improve things, where historically that may not have been the case, you know? But technology has also changed a ton too. Like just think about the onboard computing and everything else that has revolutionized solid waste collection, which would never have been thought of a while back. It's like, oh, you can't do that in a garbage truck. And it's like, well, you can. They have smart trucks now.

John Moore 20:48

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And even when we're thinking about from a training directive and you're doing it from your internal customer, it has changed so much. Um, because they had an era in my in my world where everything went to LMS, learning management systems. They wanted to X out the training because they felt like it was too much. It was, it wasn't a value. We were spending too much money on budget. So then they were like, well, let's X this out and let's bring in automation. Let's let's bring in gamification, let's do this. But they then still saw that you had a smaller group who really got it and they succeeded and they moved up. But you had a larger group who needed that interaction that needed for that trainer to identify the learning style who needed that additional explanation for the hard and complicated. So you have a smaller group that we catered to in those environments that it just worked for them. But for the man for the majority, they brought training right back in because they saw it in their work and they saw it in their work production. No, that makes sense.

Ryan Calkins 21:52

I mean, that there was also, I guess, knowledge is power, and access to information obviously grants that as well. And Historically, leaders and managers had access to more information. I'm not saying that they don't. They still do in terms of internal operations, but I think with I don't want to say with the internet, like it's some new idea, but with more access to readily available information and comparative analysis and everything else, that anybody could go in and research and get better at their jobs or understanding of industries and everything else that hasn't historically been available. I think just the access to information has kind of leveled the playing field also in terms of knowledge.

John Moore 22:33

100%. Because you think about it, if someone's out there, I'm talking to you, if you're out there and you're applying for a new job and you're like, dang, I've never done that before. Hell, you could pull it up online. You can pull it up in ChatGPT. You can say, teach me how to do this, and sound so confident and so assured. And forgive me, don't tell anyone, fake it till you make it. Ryan doesn't like that, but fake it till you make it, right? Hey, it could really work for you. But you have to be, it's not for everyone. Everyone does not have the ability to do that, right? Um, some people can do it because of a confidence and from work experience, from life. And then some people are not really good at it at all because they feel like I just can't be on the spot like that. But in today's, based on what you're saying, Ryan, uh, to today's access, it just really is gratifying that I come from an era where we were going to the library and reading the physical book and trying to figure out different things, right? Now it's literally a click away and it's bam right there. Better than any book could have ever been. No, you know, no disregard to any offers out there, but just think about it. It's right there readily.

Ryan Calkins 23:43

Well, I mean, on top of that, so you're so you talk about, you know, research and everything else with kids today, probably don't even know the Dewey Decimal system, but you know, it it took while a while to flip through your Encyclopedia Britannicas to find information. So part of the work. Go ahead. Well, and I'm just saying, like controlling things, it slows things down. But in today's environment where everything is so rapidly changing compared to what it was 20 years ago, it's the speed to make decisions and sound decisions also changes the ability to control and and command, right? Because when you end up being the bottleneck because you're so controlling, it's it's a hindrance to yourself. And like you're losing out by not utilizing your team and any knowledge and information that that they may have.

John Moore 24:32

I 100% agree. Um, I find that, and forgive anyone if I'm being you know disrespectful or calling anybody on their shit, but if you are a person who is selfish with knowledge or wanting to have all of it to yourself, so you're the important one. Well, one, that was a culture trait that we were taught. I remember one of my bosses saying, if you have the knowledge, you know, you're you're gonna be here longer. You will be accessible, you will be important. So, of course, what does that do to a person? You want to just gather, gabber, gabber. You want to be like the squirrel, all the nuts and putting the, you never know, right? But then you don't share it with anybody else. And that's where a lot of our leadership sometimes can be too, because in their mind and in their insecurities, they're thinking, if I tell someone about this, then they'll have it, and then I won't be the special one, or I won't be the one that has all of the knowledge where everyone comes to. And that is a bit selfish in the work environment. And then the the other side to it of it is is survival. Think about that. You know, someone is thinking that that's the only way I'm gonna survive in this job is if I'm the go-to. So that's why when I was thinking about this topic, you know, that there were benefits to it, right? It was. There were a lot of benefits. It was, you know, the the how the work, you know, it worked, the how the companies were built by this adage, you know, all these things made sense, right? But then they cut folks short because some people got selfish. They got greedy, they stayed in the role for 50 years and never let somebody else come behind them.

Ryan Calkins 26:16

Yeah. I mean, it it probably is working to some people's benefit right now in this current environment. Yes.

John Moore 26:23

It is, yeah, it is working for some of them. Uh, or andor you're being held hostage by the one who has the knowledge. And I've always said that to any uh, I've told that to my staff, and I've also told that to if I had to, you know, uh do any disciplinary actions, that I will not be held hostage by an employee. And usually this concept is of what I just got finished speaking about, having knowledge and be the only one that knows how to do something. No, no, no. We we cross-train, we make sure multiple people know how to do it, we make sure everybody's going to that training, we make sure the training is documented, processes are documented, SOPs are created because I refuse to be held hostage by someone who has a knowledge base that no one else has. Have you had that experience? Have you seen that before?

Ryan Calkins 27:18

I have. Um when I like when I first got to the consulting firm, like I think I don't remember if I talked with you about it or with Ernie about it, but it was a very adversarial environment where everybody was hoarding information and it was like, oh, this is my client. This is my client. I'm like, well, no, these are our clients. Like, if we work together, we can assist and gain more clients because we're leaning on each other and helping each other. We're areas of expertise, you know. If you're better at something than I am, why wouldn't I say, hey, John, can you help me out on here? Because it's better value for the client, also, versus, oh, it's my client, I'll figure it out myself.

John Moore 27:55

Where do you think, where do you think that culture was brought in at? Do you think it was brought in from a top-down, or do you think that was a culture of those individual people?

Ryan Calkins 28:04

I think it was a little bit of both because the biggest offender was my age, so came from the same era that I did. Um, even though we had very different approaches to to work and and how things should be done in a team-based environment. But it was also the ownership was 20 years older. So I think just kind of that it didn't do anything to dissuade how everybody was acting. I think part of it is like when I was at Waste Management, there there was a general manager there that would sometimes come in and create conflict to just see how the team would respond. And I'm like, well, why the hell would you just add undue pressure and stuff? Like that seems crazy to me.

John Moore 28:48

And and it's a shame that you would think that some people um relish those moments to see the chaos, but uh also they relish the moment to see people at odds. To say, this is mine, no, this is mine, no, this is yours, instead of that team environment where there was a whole era uh in the late 90s, uh maybe even mid to late 90s, that everything was about team building and we're all of one and da-da-da-da. Because it had gotten to this island type of mentality. I'm on this one by myself. This is what I own, this is what you own. And those silons never really worked. And now we see it now, they they try to make it inclusive, but I think it's still the same a bit because it's always about. I remember hearing somebody say this. No, I I brought this, this is mine. I was like, this should be for everybody. So yeah, it's it's that same mentality, I think, is here. And I still think it's a top-down that fosters it, that manipulizes it, that makes it feel like it's a healthy or normal, and it really isn't. Well, I don't know.

Ryan Calkins 29:57

That that's hard for me because I was always the person that would develop something or create it and bring it to the team and not need the accolades and oh, everybody look at me. I created this. But then somebody else would take it and act like they had done it. I'm like, like they created. I'm like, that person didn't do anything. Like they were there for the conversation, but I don't know. That part was frustrating.

John Moore 30:21

It is frustrating. It is frustrating because it would have been nice that, you know, if a person would have come, said that, you know, this was an idea. This, hey, this is an idea that Ryan and I, you know, we both worked on together. I always believe that we should make uh those types of inclusive statements, right? And it shouldn't be an I, and I'm really a firm believer in this shouldn't be an I and team. And I really, I know that sounds so corporate whitewash, but it's real. There is no I and team, right? So we have to come at things in that team orientation. But then when you get into the reality every day, I'm like, no, I'm I'm making my bonus. I gotta, I gotta get mine. I just remember it so vividly that leadership really made that separation. Yeah. Especially in mortgage. Um I think about mortgage um doing short sales. They were making like stupid bonuses, $3,000, $4,000. In mortgage, they were making crazy, they were making so much money back then that the the heads of the departments were buying the staff coach bags because they meant their quota. Meant they were buying thousand-dollar bags just to say, hey, here's a bone. They were making that kind of money in the early 2000s, you know, which is part of the reason why we had the crash. They were making stupid money. Yeah. Stupid money. And so, of course, it's a survive or die kind of thing. You know, either you're gonna make this money or you're not. And so everybody's on this island mentality, and that's again where this, you know, control combus comes into play because I think, and again, not to be disrespectful to any leadership, but they're they're manipulating it. They're they're the puppeteers. It's sitting there doing this thing. And although it's trying to come over still to the era we in, and it's a different way, because now I think that the younger generation now is more like, I want that. I want to make money. I want, what does it take? Do I have to cut somebody's to get it? I'm gonna do it. You have a group of them, or excuse me, you have a group of people that will, and you have another group that's saying, No, I don't, I don't want that. I don't want it to be like that. I just want to do my job and go on, go home. So that's more out there now, too, versus how it was so competitive back in the 90s and it is now.

Ryan Calkins 32:48

So with with the command style of of leadership, right, it kind of created a an environment for fear-based decision making where people didn't want to make the wrong calls because it would result in an ass chewing or whatever. Or not making your bonus, or it it would become a a situation where there's uh deflected ownership, you know, and it's like, well, that wasn't my call. It was John's.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Uh-huh.

Ryan Calkins 33:18

He told me to do it. I didn't screw up. Or even uh or saying back to the manager, you told me to do that. Well, or or becoming reliant on directives. Where it's like, well, just tell me what to do, John.

John Moore 33:30

You know? Absolutely. And now we can do it. No, no, no, I'm talking with you. And not having the initiative on their own self to do it.

Ryan Calkins 33:38

And and and part of all of that is really the the leader becoming the constraint and and the bottleneck, right? Where over time it has developed into more of a a distributed ownership versus a centralized ownership in terms of of leadership, right?

John Moore 33:59

Yes, yes. And and when you look at it from that lens, you then have to question and ask who does it really benefit to? And so is the leader, you know, primarily, you know, doing and dictating it for their own benefit? You can probably say yes, because they're gonna, as their staff makes their bonus, or as their staff meets their production levels, or as their staff does good, who else is doing good? Right? So, you know, again, that's where it works because that's how the mechanism works, top down. This is how it does it. It's changed again a bit to where that kind of approach is just different because the people are changing. And that, well, yeah.

Ryan Calkins 34:45

I mean, is is it part of leaders being more trusting in staff to do what they need to do? And as a result, staff are more trusting in leaders than maybe they were when it was simply do this directive and call it a day.

John Moore 35:03

You know, the first thing comes to mind, I think that it really, and it makes sense too, because if we start to target when the marketing of work-life balance came into play, it's probably right around this change. And so before work-life balance, which was around more the late 80s, definitely in the 90s, going into 2000, work-life balance was this whole slogan, right? But before then, people work like dogs. They just work, work, work, work, work, work, work. But then when work-life balance came in, it was like, I have to start giving up. I have to start giving to my staff, I got to give to my lead, I gotta give to my staff responsibilities, I have to delegate. I can't be the owner of everything because it was wearing the person out. You were getting burnout. Remember, we talked about you be, you know, getting to those burnout stages. And I think that's what probably triggered the change. Well, one of the things that triggered the change is because it it was like a clued in. I can't keep doing this like this. I'm running on empty. I don't have anything to give to my family, I don't have anything to give to myself. So then we start to lessen the control, right? And then delegate, right, to those that I feel are responsible enough to handle it. And in some cases, I've heard this too. If you're not, you're gonna get up to speed. Because now I'm putting you in those roles that you need to figure it out, which that's another topic in itself, but just figuring out things, right? It could be a good or a bad. You can succeed or you could fail. Um, but hopefully, if you're a good manager, you know the person has the capacity to do that. But I believe it started around that work-life balance kind of adage to where, okay, I can't do it all. And so lesser of the control, more of the delegation, and more entrusting to your point that my staff can do the work. That's what I think.

Ryan Calkins 37:00

So, kind of a shift in psychology from leadership trying to enable and trust staff. And as a result, staff feeling more empowered and having a psychological shift that they are more valuable than treated historically.

John Moore 37:20

And I would say that's subconsciously done as well as consciously. Because I don't remember a movement and leadership training that said, well, yes, it was, but I don't remember it being the focus of delegation, right? But this was also a cultural change, too, what we're talking about. Because remember, this is what people lived and breathed was this control component. I have to control the narrative, I got to control everything, I gotta know everything. You have to come to me first before you make or do anything. That's how it was back then.

Ryan Calkins 37:53

So the the shift from control, where you're essentially providing instructions on how to do something in a shift more towards clarity, where you're providing the intent and then letting the person figure out their own way to get there.

John Moore 38:07

Figuring out the your own way to get there or allowing them to do something and say, come back to me and tell me what you came up with. Instead of them physically doing it, let's say it's a problem that they need to solve, come back with an answer. You know, don't just, you know, don't ask me. I remember I remember that one too. Don't ask me everything. Go and see if you can figure it out, come back with a solution. So there was a definite shift. If we start really thinking about it, there was a shift. It was a shift.

Ryan Calkins 38:40

No, there, yeah, there is. So for all of the leaders that that really built their identity on being the driver and the one with the answers and and being the person to make the decision, how do you think that it eventually shifted to where they are more open and trusting and leaning on their team for actual support and being vulnerable enough to accept it?

John Moore 39:08

You know what comes to mind? Retirement. People who have been in it for 15, 20 years, they can't do it as much like they used to. Their time that they want to pass the baton. So less of being in that grind and more of, you know what, I don't want this much anymore. I want to be with my family and see my son play baseball. I want to see my daughter do ballet. So I'm starting to delegate. I'm starting to release. My commands are what they are, follow those. You know, if something goes awry, call me. Otherwise, I'm gone. I'm giving it to you. So again, that work-life balance, the family being a priority. I'm retiring. I don't want to do this for the next 20 years. I'm heading my way out. So I start to relinquish those responsibilities.

Ryan Calkins 39:56

So you don't think it was a matter of self-realization and they're being too limiting in what they're doing. It was more a selfish, I need more time for myself. So I'm going to force myself to trust and see what happens.

John Moore 40:15

I don't think that it was, if we did percentages, if if I was a wedding man that knew the numbers, I don't think that it was this percentage of these, that aha moment that I need to just start empowering my staff. No, I think it was either forced, right? In some way, shape, or form, you know, forced from a standpoint of my age, I'm about to retire, um, I'm not with my family, forced in that kind of way, not necessarily somebody, you know, forcing you. And then I think it could have been also been another way of leadership training that has been said and put the idea there and say, you know what, how are you doing with delegation? Well, I don't delegate anything. So you you manage everything from start to finish. Yeah, because I want to make sure everything is done. I I I so then the the trainer or whoever that team person is is saying, so you don't trust your staff. Well, well, no, well, that's not good. How do I get them to, you know, how do you get them to be trusted? And so it's like, well, I don't know. I I never invested in that. So that starts to, you know, put some some some sprouting seeds in that person's head to say, okay, well, let me try something different. But for them just to consciously say, oh, I want to empower my staff to do it, that number, I bet you is lessened.

Ryan Calkins 41:31

You know, it it's I don't want to say it's it's funny that that you mentioned that, but when I was at the consulting firm, the the guy that I worked for was very engineered historically or professionally, um, very meticulous about everything. Like every spreadsheet you'd had to print out and 11 by 17 with blue pencil, it had to be blue pencil. We had to mark everything and track it. And I'm like, dude, this is so tedious and insane. But when you go back six months down the road and you have a problem with your project and you go back and you don't do it, you it's impossible. You waste so much time going back and trying to figure out why you did what you did. So I'm like, oh man, I appreciate this guy like so much more. But it's just like he was the kind of guy that would like yell at people and make them cry in the office. And as soon as he stepped back as owner and settled into more of a mentorship role, it was like night and day, his demeanor, everything was completely different. He came in, he was smiling all the time, happy to help people, more outgoing. It was just an insane shift in in approach to his day-to-day work.

John Moore 42:42

And that could have also been health. Think about it. I mean, he could have been an older guy, possibly. Um stressing out, seeing the, you know, seeing the the the experiences that could happen uh if he did not. Strokes, heart attacks, hypertension, whatever, whatever, right? And so maybe someone told him, there's that force. If you don't stop, if you don't stop being this person, you're gonna die, blah, blah, blah. So you know what? There's that force. That changes the rhythm. Because I'm telling you, I've seen the same thing too. People are so better when they're outside of that realm of stress. So much better. But when you also think about too, kind of thinking about um breaking the no, if you will, right? That's another piece that I think is even valuable to talk about too. And when we talk about breaking the no, guys, what I'm talking about is when you have leadership. Well, let's say when you have ideas and leadership are always saying no to your ideas. What I would always do is say if it wasn't now, it would be a not now, but something later kind of thing. Because, you know, I didn't want to just, you know, say no, and then that would, you know, kind of make that person feel. Like, I can't bring an idea because the really idea he brings is going to be no. Some were, yeah, we can do it now. Some will be, yeah, we could look at that, you know, later. That could be a good opportunity. Some could be future, far future. But we never really said no. And that was just from my leadership training of not saying no to staff, but it wanted to have it to be more palatable for them to accept that you brought an idea, because I was never close to an idea. Um, but I also knew that everything that they brought, we couldn't implement. You know, I remember some would say, Oh, we want to go to a four-day work week. Okay, draw, you know, give me a proposal. How are we gonna do it? What are we gonna do? Are we gonna do 10, 18 hour workdays? How are we gonna do our training? How are we gonna do this? Give me, you know, tell me how we're gonna do it. They brought the proposal, they took it to their lead, they brought the the lead brought it to me. We we signed up on the approval. It made sure that everything was covered. You see, so good ideas can come from it. We can't always just say no because we want to say no. You could really have some good ideas that can build momentum, build um, you know, some form of positivity within your group.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 45:11

On that note, I kind of want to open it up to our listeners. Where do you feel like you're still acting as as a bottleneck and what decisions could your team make without you but currently don't?

John Moore 45:24

Good point. And and what are you reinforcing from not saying an old, but a traditional way of management that may need to be re-looked and re-evaluated? That's something to think about as well.

Ryan Calkins 45:40

Yeah. And how do I build something that doesn't need to be me rather than focusing on how do I stay in control? True. Which is what John alluded to earlier.

John Moore 45:52

And and and I think I I'll add this too. Why do I have to be in control now? Why can't I be a delegator? And why can't I uh motivate my staff? And that means that you have to hire people that you know are open and adapt to doing stuff like that. You just don't want to just, you know, hire people just to hire them. You want to hire them for the sake of multiple dynamics for the business, for yourself, for their selves, for everything. It's not just, I want you to do this work and you do the work, but it's about the longer investment, I think, too, as well. What do you think about that? That longer investment.

Ryan Calkins 46:27

No, I I I think that like I've talked about before, I am willing to sacrifice the short term for the success of the long. Um it's just personal preference. Not everybody shares that that viewpoint. Um just the way that I approach things personally.

John Moore 46:44

I agree. I agree.

Ryan Calkins 46:46

Why not? On that note, uh, if you liked what we talked about today, please like, please subscribe, share, comment. We love engagement. Uh we would love to hear from you guys.

John Moore 46:57

And until next week, leading ain't easy. But you don't have to do it alone.

Ryan Calkins 47:02

Thanks for tuning in to leading ain't easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit reframeRise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's reframerise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bus Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.