The Call Nobody Wants to Make

Ryan Calkins and John Moore get into what it actually feels like to be forced into a decision when you don't have nearly enough information, but can't wait any longer. An honest conversation about perfectionism, pressure from above, who absorbs the damage when decisions get rushed, and whether some of the calls that "worked" were strategy or just luck.

Full Show Notes

Most leadership content will tell you how to make better decisions. This episode is about what it's actually like to make decisions when you can't.

Ryan and John talk through the real experience of decision paralysis — not as a concept, but as something that happens in the middle of real projects with real stakes. They get into:

• What it looks like when leadership pushes a launch, a training rollout, or a system migration before anyone actually has what they need, and who ends up taking the hit when it goes sideways
• Ryan's early experience in consulting, where perfectionism kept him revising off the clock, and the moment a senior VP told him "having something to work with is better than perfection nobody ever sees"
• John's experience being accountable for outcomes he couldn't fully control — training 140 people with four trainers on a compressed timeline, under leadership that already doubted him
• The question they keep coming back to: is it ever better to delay the call, or does stalling sometimes cause more damage than making the wrong decision quickly?
• And an honest look at whether some decisions that "worked" were actually sound calls, or whether people got lucky and the result just made it look like genius

No clean answers here. Just two people who've been in it, talking through what it actually felt like.

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

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Transcript

Ryan Calkins 0:00

Leading Ain't Easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, John Moore. As we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't, the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy.

John Moore 1:04

And what's missing? What information you don't have at the time to really make that decision that you really need to make? And that's something that typically you don't have right in front of you.

unknown 1:14

Right.

Ryan Calkins 1:14

So when you have the partial facts or or conflicting opinions and really you're just running out of time. And it's either, you know, pull the trigger and roll or continue to be stuck.

John Moore 1:26

And I think what's so funny about this topic was as I was thinking about it, I was thinking like, I don't think this has happened. But as soon as I thought about it more, I was like, yes, it has. Which is uh when we have a lot of attrition where people are leaving the company and then they're trying to um, if you will, trap staff up, train all these people in mass amounts, but not thinking about are we giving them enough time to get up to speed? Are we giving them the trainers enough time to train? Or, you know, all of these things that need to be in place. None of those things are ever thought about. It's, you know, leadership has to get it done. And thinking about all those integral pieces are not always a part of the decision. So therefore, it leaves you in a form of paralysis. You don't know, should you go left or should you go right? And then the the unfortunate is is the outcome. Someone always gets the brunt of it, whether it's the customer service, whether it's the staff member, whether it's the safety of a process, something is always cut short because we're always moving so quickly and not giving enough time to really make a sound decision. What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 2:31

Yeah, I mean, I guess personally I I I struggled with decision paralysis, just wanting to like when I when I put my name on something, it's something that, you know, I I have pride in, and then I've put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into. And when you don't think that that end product is where it needs to be, or that the person receiving it isn't going to be happy, or they aren't gonna get the value out of it that you think that they should have. So you're consistently trying to make it better. And when I first got to my consulting role, um I I just I struggled because I had come from, you know, uh going into a job where billable hours, like there got to a point to where it's like the owner of the company is like, hey, you know, at some point you got to put pencils down. You can't continue to revise because when you're in a consulting role working on billable hours on a client's budget, it's like every revision that you do, they're paying for, right? So I ended up where I was working off the clock on my own time, revising and revising and revising and continuing to push forward because one, I didn't want to, you know, shit the bed in a new industry and a new job that I was learning. So I didn't want to make a massive mistake, but also I didn't want to let the client down. I didn't want to let the company down and all of these things that I was carrying the burden myself to where I would just get lost in perfection. And it was very hard to break the habit of no, you know, it that it doesn't have to be complete, it has to be okay and put it out there. Like obviously, you don't want to give your client like a complete shit product, but you need to give them enough to where they can review it and send it back and engage in conversation and move things forward. Because if you're not communicating and you're continuing to revise and the deadline is getting closer and closer, everybody's in the dark except you, like you know where it's at. It's just there's so many things that just compound and make your situation worse when you get stuck trying to aim for perfection.

John Moore 4:57

And I think what's interesting about uh these two examples, one that I'm talking from a corporate side and one you're talking from a personal, that is so interesting that from a consultant standpoint, so much is on that consultant, right? And usually if you're a consultant, you are a subject matter expert. So you have that on you as well. So you're trying to make the best product possible. But at the same time, it comes more point where you're just gonna have to let it go and release it. You know, you can't just continue to um, and when I say release it, not just like release it, but like release it from you saying, okay, this is as much as it's gonna be. We're gonna work on it as it goes, right? But then as I'm looking from my standpoint, we don't even get a chance to have any personal to it. You know, you don't know, because it's like you got you got S you got SVPs, you got VPs in your ear. What's you know, what's it taking so long? You know, why is it taking so long to train up people? And it's a sad situation because who gets the brunt of it is those persons that I mentioned safety, uh customer service, or operation staff. Somebody always gets the brunt of the lack of giving either time or making a good decision or whatever it may be. And I think that's the sad part about it. You know, corporate has always been that way. Where it's always like rush, rush, rush. We need it like 50 days ago. And it's like, really? And this is like when you look at it, it's like a shit project. You've been working on this for four years, and you now you want to, it's like, come on. It's the saddest situation, but corporate has always ran that way. Always.

Ryan Calkins 6:28

Well, it was like in the in the military, we had the whole hurry up and wait conversation. You had to rush to get everywhere, just to stall and sit. And you're like, okay, well, why did we have to rush to get here? And now, you know, we're sitting idle.

John Moore 6:41

And then I come from rushed for nothing because it's like, what are we rushing towards? It's like makes no sense. Yeah. But then you have you you thinking more of that way. I guess for me, it was more the intimidation uh that would bother me from the standpoint of me wanting to do the best that I can, knowing that me or my department is on the line. But then at the same time, you have a man who's or a woman who's already thinking you can't do the job anyway. So you have that burden on you as well. So it's like, what do you do? You know, do you just just, you know, just throw it out there and just let it see where it lands? No, you that's not what we're made of, but we always are put in those situations that that's what you have to do. And that's so sad. It really, really is, because someone always gets the brunt of it.

Ryan Calkins 7:29

No, that's true. I don't know. I mean, I I guess even like outside of the personal struggles early with you know, with the with the project management, it's also just trying to like when you're faced with a a decision that you have to make and you have a fraction of the information to where you're not comfortable pulling the trigger on something, but you have no choice. And it's like, okay, well, I have all of this on my plate. Like, like you said, somebody gets the brunt of it, but I mean, how do you decide where that hammer falls, you know?

John Moore 8:05

And sometimes you make those decisions and you're gonna, and it's gonna be a bad decision. Um, I as you were talking, it made me think about um when we have all these trainings. Let's say, for an example, there's 140 people and they want back to back to back to back to back to back training. Now, each of these trainings to be two weeks, and you only have, let's say, four trainers. You never give your trainer breathing time, you never give them rest. So therefore, they're getting worn out, they're getting stressed out, their knowledge is not as sharp as it needs to be. So they're getting the brunt of it. Then the uh quickness of the training, think about it. Now the learner isn't getting anything because I'm not giving them enough time to really take it in and get the work process, right? Then here's the customer, here's how the customer's affected. Now, rep that we've just trained gets with that rep, customer gets them, customer gets something, needs something to be done, rep doesn't know how to do it because core ass training. There's always a cause and there's always going to be an effect, if you will, from whatever the situation is. And so, yeah, it's like you say, well, you know, what do you do? You make the decision, but the decision always still excuse me, is shit.

Ryan Calkins 9:20

I mean, have you ever tried to delay the uh decision by I don't know, asking for consensus when you can and delaying the meeting or I'm sick, I'll be in next week.

John Moore 9:34

No, hoping it was technical issues, hoping it was technical issues or there was a uh a new build that was stopping us, right? So that we could, you know, slow the process down. Um, we don't have enough laptops. So I mean, always hoping for something on the technical side, because that was really your only reprieve, was hoping that something on the tech side could not work. And that was sad because you were betting on that.

Ryan Calkins 9:59

Well, I mean, even bringing up tech at all, like like, so the whole thing with technology is you have to stay ahead of the game, right? So you're really forced to make those decisions, I feel like quicker than any other type of business most of the time, right? So you always have to be on the cutting edge. So you're making decisions with even less information than you would have otherwise. And how some of these people do it, I just I mean, to be fair, you see a lot of tech companies crash and burn.

John Moore 10:30

Maybe they made the wrong decisions, but man, I made the wrong decisions or hired the wrong person, you know, which you know, tomato tomato. But the thing of it is that we'll put the wrong persons in leadership because they're trying to prove something. So they're cracking the whip at everybody else. What I've always would have loved is that we all get together and we figure out what is the most effective way to do, you know, the this work process, this launch or this training or whatever it may be. Let's all the departments get together. We're all on the same page. And that never seems to work. Never seems to work.

Ryan Calkins 11:06

So we, I mean, we've talked about some of the, I guess, the external pieces in delaying and the reasons for kind of pushing back, you know, by asking for for more data and things like that. But have you ever had any of the internal struggles?

John Moore 11:22

Absolutely. Absolutely. We've had the internal struggle. We've had HR have issues of wanting to push forward. You have operations saying slow down. You say, I mean, are you talking about that or are you talking about more personal?

Ryan Calkins 11:34

I mean, I mean internal, like like personally. Have you ever struggled with like, oh, you know, well, what if I make this call and everybody like that doubted me can walk away and saying, ha, I was right.

John Moore 11:44

Absolutely. Um, it makes me think about a lot of the different roles. And and the wonderful thing is that my trainers were so good we still were able to push it through. But the back end, they were like, they were all exhausted. And I mean, it's just a terrible situation. But, you know, you have to hopefully have a team that you can do it or you you do it on your own. But yeah, it's a it's a bad feeling to not have all the information, not feel really 100 about the decision you have to make. 40% of the information and 100% of responsibility, that's that's a lot. That's a lot.

SPEAKER_04 12:22

And in more times, it's less than 40%.

Ryan Calkins 12:28

And and most of the time, I'd say more information is needed, right? But also there's times where I need more information, can be a way to stall or even, you know, push responsibility to to somebody else. Like, oh, well, I've been sitting on on IT, like I they haven't given me what I need.

John Moore 12:51

I mean, that's really what I tell you, it was my saving grace. But it also made me think of those times where um when you've made the decision, the decision did not did not work out well. And persons did not necessarily, I have to say, they didn't necessarily say it was training. Um, they would have identified, okay, yeah, we did rush this because they'll see it. They'll see it themselves. And then there has been somewhere, yeah, it was on training and we had to sit there and take the brunt out. And that didn't feel good because we we told them, hey, hello, we don't have enough time. We only got four trainers, you know, 140 people, four trainers. That's not gonna get done quite quickly.

SPEAKER_04 13:34

Nobody cares.

Ryan Calkins 13:37

Well, I could just, I mean, for me, I of course always want to feel like I'm I'm seen as decisive. But in an ideal world, I would have the comfort of of certainty in the decision that I'm making. And that just is just never the case.

John Moore 13:56

You don't always have that luxury. You don't always have that luxury. But it just is a shit feeling at the end sometimes. It really, really is. It's because you you want to make the best decision, you want to make the most sound decision possible, not only for the business, for the customer, but also for your team. And you seem like someone always is dropped in that process.

Ryan Calkins 14:21

So I mean, both are not great. But what would you think would would be worse? Being reckless with your decision making in order to be quick about it, or being stuck in in weighing the decision so far that the circumstances change. Yeah.

John Moore 14:44

Yeah. Because you would then became you would, you would excuse me, you would then build a reputation like that. And you don't want that. That that reputation of just doing something and just making poor decisions, you know, those outcomes would start building a reputation. And that's not one I would want to jeopardize. I would rather have someone say they're slow to move, but the quality of the work is good.

Ryan Calkins 15:08

But if the situation deteriorates and is irrelevant by the time you make a decision, couldn't that be just as detrimental?

John Moore 15:15

It could be, but also too, it depends on what is going to be lost, honestly, is what's lost in it. I mean, will we make a quick decision and then we could have lost more dollars and cents, and that could have impacted the business, or we took our time and the impact was lessened towards the money pocket of all things, and we still made a good decision. So I guess you got to weigh your pros and cons and see, you know, which one would be. But for me, I would always think about if I'm consistently making poor decisions, it starts to build a reputation.

Ryan Calkins 15:49

Yes, I agree with that. But that could be the case either way, whether you're too fast or too slow.

John Moore 15:55

Yeah, it depends on how the leadership is looking at it. Because the leadership is looking at, oh, you're too cautious. Oh, you, you know, just let things ride out. And it's like, no, you have to plan things. No, just let it ride out. And then when it rides out, they're not coming back and saying, Yeah, John, that was messed up. They're coming back and saying, Well, you know, we gotta get this and push, push, push on. I've only had one boss that was a butthole like that. But the majority of my bosses um have been allowing me to kind of roll with it because I knew training and I knew how it was supposed to be done. But you know, training is uh people believe it's not rocket science, but it can be. Um, but then also it can be very complicated. It just all depends on what's being done.

SPEAKER_04 16:42

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 16:44

So what I guess what has been kind of your personal approach when you're forced to make a decision where you don't necessarily feel comfortable in the amount of information you have available to to where I mean, you're basically pulling the trigger on something. And how do you or have you, you know, kind of personally weighed what you have and what you don't when making that decision?

John Moore 17:12

Yeah, it's not a good place to be in.

SPEAKER_04 17:16

And um yeah, it feels like shit, but you gotta do it.

Ryan Calkins 17:25

Yeah. So I mean, so I guess what when you when you have all these factors, right? You're you're weighing what you what you know and and what you don't know, and you're looking at your risk, like if I make this decision, if I make that decision, and then you're trying to essentially compile and prioritize all of that to see what the what the outcome is going to be. What the sacrifice would be in in making the decision and hoping that you mitigate the damage as much as possible.

John Moore 17:55

But see, that's why I say you do it and it feels like a shit decision because you really don't know until it's done to then look like, that was not a good decision. Then, you know, you know, no one is no one is really like looking and saying, oh, how we could we do better? How we is blame gained now. Oh, it was IT, oh, it was training, training didn't do it, and that's where it gets in that end of doing a um uh migration or opening up a new branch or whatever we were doing, it was always that way. And I don't care how many um different meetings we had, it was still something where someone was rushing, rushing forward, and another one was saying, wait, wait, wait, we got to do it this way. And no one ever caught up to say, look at the pros and cons here. Nobody cares because it's always about money. I remember we had to open up so many clinics. I think when I had started with this company, we had, let's just say we had a hundred and something clinics. We had to double that. We had to open up 300 and something clinics by a certain year, right? And that meant that we were acquiring clinics. So we were going in, we were doing the migration of systems, we were doing the migrations of, you know, staff. So it was tiered. That process was well, but then it would get to a point where the system wasn't caught up with the training, or the training wasn't caught up with the system. The systems wasn't in place yet. So, you know, we're at these levels where, okay, we're ready to train, but y'all don't have the system in place. And so there's a delay. You know, so there's a delay in production, there's a delay in opening up that branch, there's a delay. So then they're coming back. Hey, well, why isn't training? Why is it? It's not training, it's system. You guys haven't been out there to set up the Wi-Fi, you haven't been out there to set up all of the computers with the app that we need. So it's always something when you're rushing, rushing, rushing, and you're not really being able to process every decision that's being made. And some people like it like that. Some I find that some men have been like, you know, just get it, just push it. We'll we'll clean it up on the back end. I've heard that many, many times. So much money has been spent.

Ryan Calkins 20:11

Pencils down, put it out, we'll we'll clean it up on the back end, and but you gotta have something. He's like, basically, what he told me was that having something to work with is better than having perfection that nobody ever sees. And I'm like, all right.

John Moore 20:27

And which is a good point, but I think I want to throw this back at you. I don't think in corporate America, period, there will ever be perfection. I think our goal would approach that to be, but it never will be. No matter how many times you re-edited and did something, it still won't be perfect.

Ryan Calkins 20:46

Yeah. What do you think? No, I I agree. I don't there's no matter what's perfect, like uh you'll always find something that could have been better.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yeah, absolutely.

Ryan Calkins 20:56

That's why I always look at you know, authors that put something out. I'm like, I wonder how many of them sit back and be like, oh, I should have redone this chapter. Or how many times they rewrote that chapter. Yeah. But I mean, even after they put it out and they have their final product, is it ever really final for them? Or do they continue to wonder, oh, what if I had done this, even if their book sells, you know, a million copies, they probably still have some level of self-doubt and what where they finally cut it off.

John Moore 21:22

But I think that's the creativity of it all, too, when it comes to offers and writers and artists and things like that. I think that they will always feel like there's something better or something more you could have done. You know, creative is always in that kind of a vein. But I think when we bring that into corporate, we get to such a place that, to your point at the beginning, does build a form of paralysis because you want it to be the best of the best work. And there's just not, I don't think that there's a a place for that per se. When it's other people involved, there's no real place for that in corporate. What do you think?

Ryan Calkins 21:59

I mean, it's True, but I don't know. I mean, I I think it it's coupled with the kind of that fear of failure. And when everything is driven by the results and how things are, you know, with your performance and and bonuses and everything else is tied to what you're putting out. I mean, I can understand like there's a real fear of well, if I do, you know, go fall on my face with this, is there going to be that opportunity to continue and grow like there used to be, where you could screw up and be able to rebuild and figure things out and you would have guidance and you stayed in a role long enough to develop. And I know that we touched on this on a prior episode, but it's another one of those things where it's like everything moves so fast now that people don't have time. And if you have a what's even perceived as a major screw up, like that could be curtains.

John Moore 22:55

Literally. Literally. And and it won't be any of your fault because you probably said we need more time, but no one cared.

Ryan Calkins 23:04

Well, yeah. I mean, that that that's the whole thing. So do you think people that are forced into making a decision with inadequate information? Oh, yes. No, I'm I'm saying, dude, do you think it's it's a game of chance and luck where great decisions aren't necessarily like you think people lucked into those decisions?

John Moore 23:24

I think sometimes it's possibly that there could be luck or a blessing that that happened. It still seems, even if you evaluated it later, yeah, it, you know, it went through with without a hitch. Everything worked. But then when you come back and you look at it and you show all these different things that were missed, I think it still hinders the process. Maybe it doesn't show up from the outer, but when you go and deep dive and you start opening up those layers, you'll see all of the errors because we didn't, you know, we really didn't take out the time. But it goes back to your, I call it creative statement. You were saying, you know, the writers and the offers, that's something that's internal still with us. We want to make the best decision. But sometimes I'm telling you, I've I've been there, you've been there. We are literally pushed to make a decision. And sometimes the decision comes out well, and then sometimes the decision is not good.

Ryan Calkins 24:16

I mean, that's that's that's what I mean, is like even like looking back at you know, historical like warfare and battlefields, right? Where they're making decisions, oftentimes with very limited information and a hope and a prayer, and it works out. They're like, oh, that he was a genius on the battlefield. And it's like, was he? Or did he just luck out that everything lined up perfectly?

John Moore 24:39

I mean, that's happened recently in our political arena. I mean, really. So yeah, absolutely. But you know, you just never can tell. I I I I don't know what the the the best answer is because you you're in a rock and a hard place. You're trying to you're trying to please one or the other, and you're trying to figure out, you know, who who is the the the most important in it. And it just always seems to, again, cut someone in the process. And again, I hate that the customer is cut. I hate that the employees are messed up, but someone always gets cut.

Ryan Calkins 25:14

Yeah, well, it's just crazy because I mean it's just everything is so nuanced that obviously you're working with what you have available, which may be the best information that you could have, and it may not be. And it's just, I don't know. It's just thinking about my my own, you know, process of going through everything, like I kind of mentioned before. It's working with what you know and what you don't, and being, I guess being comfortable and and and mature enough as a professional to voice that. Like you can state what you know and what you don't, and sharing that information. And here's the the risk that we have of waiting, and here what is what we will potentially lose if we don't move, and this is why we need to call it, and just being able to, I guess, validate and justify the decision so it doesn't seem like it it's rushed or or made, you know, on on the fly. So you're making it with the information that you have, but you're presenting it that it was an educated decision, and these are the reasons why, like what the risks are if you don't.

John Moore 26:22

And you're making some form of risk analysis and telling them this is what this is what could happen. But uh, my question to you is how often do you still give be given the privilege, because that's what it is, be given the privilege to have given all the risk factors, say, you know, you we need to delay, um, hear all of the impacts that's gonna happen, and they hear you and say, you know what, good call.

Ryan Calkins 26:49

I mean, that happens when it works out. When it doesn't, it's it's it's another conversation. But I I I think the difference has been the the ownership of the decision. And and I I don't even mean where you're like you're like making a a decision for the sake of of making the decision and just having everybody go along with it, but it it's being able to articulate and justify the reasoning behind it and having confidence in it that even when it doesn't work out or you and and not I think the bigger thing is if you make a decision and the winds start to change, you're not so caught up in the decision that you made that you stay with it if things are are going south quickly, like cut bait, pivot and and course correct. And I think a lot of people also get stuck on, oh, I made this decision, I'm gonna see it through, even when it's not working.

John Moore 27:49

And you kind of alluded to this earlier. You just made me think of this, but do you think that the delay can I I think you might have said this too, and I'm probably rephrasing it, but you think that the delay could cause more damage?

Ryan Calkins 28:02

Well, okay, so we we talked briefly uh about tech and having to stay on the on the cutting edge, right? And if you're delaying and delaying and delaying because you don't have it, and one or two other groups come up and they're working on the same thing, but they break through because you were too afraid to move, I mean, then you lose footing, which could be huge, you know?

John Moore 28:23

And you could lose money or and or contracts or whatever. But then you you move without having all the proper things in line, then what?

Ryan Calkins 28:35

I mean, there's there's certainly a risk. Absolutely. But yeah, I mean, but you've been in business long enough where typically the first one there is the one with the greatest success. I mean, a lot of times people can improve, and if you stall and you don't continue to grow, you you'll get surpassed by people that that come in after you. But usually the ones that make those decisions and get out front will continue to to adapt and and make things better and continue to grow.

John Moore 29:05

It's just a hard one. It really, really is. It's just not easy. And the more you maybe think about it, it just brings up so much more of the examples. It's like, oh my God, yeah, yeah, I remember that. I remember that. Yeah, it's it's just not it's not an easy task to make a decision without having uh the information or um the comfortability in the decision. Because you may have the information, but then you may not be comfortable by making the decision as well, because all of the pieces are not there like you would like it to be.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

Yeah.

John Moore 29:39

Yeah. Just you know, sometimes it could be that kind of way. Then you have some people again, they are um not really phased by that. They're just like, hey, just do it. Pull it, pull it, pull it. And it's like, wow.

Ryan Calkins 29:53

I know. That freaks me out. I met people. I I worked with a guy at waste management that was like that.

SPEAKER_04 30:00

Pull it, pull it.

Ryan Calkins 30:01

You're like, no, what I I I feel like he was he was making changes every every quarter. It was something new. It's like, oh, we're gonna do this, you know, and it's like, oh, that didn't work out, we're gonna do this. And I'm just like, is there no accountability? Like, nobody cares. Let's move on.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Next, absolutely. It's scary.

Ryan Calkins 30:23

But I mean, it's also fascinating to see somebody operate like that. And I I will say that he by far had more successes that than failures, but he had a lot of freedom to make changes, and we didn't always have you know the most information. But he was just like, take it, go see what happens, you know. Let's see. And I was like, I guess we had just have an open checkbook and just mess it all up, burn and it started all over again.

John Moore 30:53

But now you you say that's interesting. I don't know, maybe because I try in my regular life, I try to I try my best to make the best decisions and look at all the pros and cons. And that really is important to me. So it's it, I don't I don't know if I would look at a person that way and say, oh, that's that's kind of I'm like, that's radical. That's scary just to make decisions like that and don't worry about the end or what it might come out to be. I'm that cautious kid.

Ryan Calkins 31:21

Yeah, I'm I'm kind of the opposite. Like I wish I was more cautious, but it's a very, well, I don't know how open I should get on here, but uh yeah, I hear you sometimes. I mean, I mean, I it it's just a a very let's see what happens.

John Moore 31:41

Yeah, let's see what happens. And see me, I'm on the other side and saying, all right, I kind of feel like I know what's gonna happen. I don't like it, so let's do this instead. And so I I prefer to know versus not know. Know how the outcome is gonna be, what the outcome. I mean, best of our knowledge, of course, you know.

Ryan Calkins 31:59

Right. Um, yeah, I mean, I ideally I would like to, you know, know what's gonna happen before also. I guess I and I don't even want to make it sound like I'm some kind of evil can evil where I'll just go do whatever. When it comes to physical stuff that could kill you, I'm out. Like I'm not gonna skydive or anything else. It's just it's more let's just jump out.

unknown 32:19

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 32:20

It's more I'll figure out the consequences when the time comes. Because I I I don't know, I've just always been of the mindset that everything will work out.

John Moore 32:29

And sometimes it does, and sometimes that's a good adage, but I like to have more of that safety.

Ryan Calkins 32:36

I could probably use some of that safety right now. I'll give you some of it.

John Moore 32:43

Oh, it's cut it all your way.

Ryan Calkins 32:46

Yeah, we'll collect some of that safety and store it up. Yes indeed, yes indeed. Wow, wow, good. Well, for our our listeners, I mean, is there anywhere right now that that you're struggling with a decision to make and and waiting for for certainty that that may never come? Um how is that working out? What what are you struggling with? And are there decisions that you're really avoiding because you're afraid of that outcome and essentially shielding yourself from it?

John Moore 33:16

And honestly, there isn't anything wrong with being safe with decisions, but you just don't always have the luxury of doing that, especially when it comes into corporate America. But if you do, use it because that gives you enough time to really think of every person that's going to be affected by the decision in which you make. And if you don't know, uh you will know on the back end of that decision, and I prefer you know it.

Ryan Calkins 33:39

Yeah, and and like we mentioned before, sometimes delaying a decision can can end up doing more damage than making the the wrong call too quickly.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Yeah, this is true. This is true. I agree.

Ryan Calkins 33:50

I agree. From John and I, and until next week, leading ain't easy. But you don't have to do it alone. Peace. Thanks for tuning in to leading ain't easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit reframerise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's Refraimerise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bus Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.