From the Corner Office to the Zoom Room

The corner office used to be shorthand for authority. Now leadership happens through a camera icon, a chat message, and a lot of trust you didn't have to build the same way before. Ryan Calkins and John Moore have a real conversation about what actually changed (and what got lost) when work went remote.

Full Show Notes:

The shift from physical to virtual work didn't just change where people work. It changed how leadership lands, how authority is established, how trust gets built, and how the subtle things that used to make someone worth following don't always survive the move to a screen.

Ryan and John get into it honestly:

• What the corner office actually meant — not just status, but a kind of shorthand authority that came with presence, visibility, and being around people. When that disappeared, some leaders lost more than a room.
• Trust without visibility — how do you manage people you can't see? They talk through the real tension between giving people autonomy and not knowing what's actually happening on the other end of a status report.
• What new leaders are missing — both of them came up in physical environments where you absorbed leadership by watching it. That informal learning is harder to replicate on a Zoom call, and they don't think enough people are talking about what that costs.
• Remote work and the illusion of authority — for some leaders, going remote didn't strip away real authority. It stripped away the props that substituted for it. Ryan and John name that honestly.
• The case for hybrid — neither of them is anti-remote. But they're both honest about what they personally gave up, and why the middle ground feels more like the real answer.

This isn't a verdict on remote work. It's two people who managed in physical environments trying to make sense of a change they didn't fully choose, and figuring out what leadership actually requires when presence isn't an option.

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

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Transcript

Ryan Calkins 0:00

Leading Ain't Easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, John Moore. As we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't, the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy.

John Moore 1:05

And also what the office represents, if you will, um, to a person. And does it all does it offer a sense of respect? Does it offer a sense of authority? What does it offer? Having an actual space that quantifies you as leadership versus uh a camera that now quantifies you still as leadership. So yeah, it'd be interesting to talk about it.

Ryan Calkins 1:25

Yeah. I mean, well, the the the corner office it itself used to mean something, right? Everybody had cubicles or you had a side office that maybe had a window, maybe didn't, but having that corner office was like you you made it. You you were somebody. And, you know, just having the the authority by association to to walk through the room. It's like, oh, there's John. He's got the corner office. And it was somebody that that you aspired to be.

John Moore 1:51

I think it was what we even put on our career pathing in a lot of ways, is that that was it, you know, to get that office or to get an office, period, uh, was uh very important. And now we're in a uh a different, you know, form of technology because of the the pandemic where we're now remote, which of course is there's conveniences there, there's a lot of conveniences there. We're talking about no commuting, we're talking about um being able to work more, having the flexibility and all those wonderful things. But I wonder, does the flexibility in remote or virtual work take away from a sense of leadership and the power of leadership?

SPEAKER_02 2:34

What do you think about that? I don't know.

Ryan Calkins 2:38

I struggle because I have always been somebody that has been in deep, like on the cutting edge of technology. And I've always prided myself on that. And technology just evolves so fast that I don't know, like 20 years ago, it's like you you could be in on everything, and now it's like there's so much moving and being developed that you could be up to speed on one thing and behind on 10 other things. And I don't know, for for for me personally, I always do better and have historically done better in person. And the only F I ever got in school was the one online class that that I took in college. It I don't even remember what class it was, not that it matters, but it was just that the concept of having to do your work and then go into a chat and regurgitate the same thing that 30 other people have done to say the same thing just seemed like such a waste of time to me. And it was part of you know, the passing grade is to have this conversation that doesn't matter. I I don't know. So I struggled, and it was the only F I I ever gotten. I never took another online course again.

John Moore 3:55

So it wasn't I didn't struggle too much because I started remote work back in the uh 90s, late 90s. So getting the remote work kind of concept was okay. Um, then moving forward while you were talking, I was thinking, wow, um, I was talking to people at Zoom before there was really Zoom. I remember before that, we were just, you know, trying to figure out how we were going to incorporate it into our company. And now it's like the leading edge. You know, if it's not Zoom, it's Google Meets. If it's not Google Meets, it's whatever other platform that we're using. But I think it does something to your point. I think it does something to the socialization, the importance of meeting was different. Uh, collaborating in the conference room was different because it seems like we got more things done. Somebody may disagree online and say, ah, I get more things done now. But um I have a client that says he doesn't even know what his fellow uh co-workers look like because the majority of them are off camera. And it's like he doesn't even he said he said the only way he would know them if they walk past him is just to hear their voice. He said, but he's never seen any of his employee, never seen his boss. That's insane to me. Crazy to me. He said he's never met his boss, never in person, and now his boss, I think, moved to Texas, and so he's thinking about going to see him, but I just I couldn't believe that.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

It's like, what? Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 5:31

It changes, it it really changes. Yeah. Like you may have been, you know, remote pre-COVID. I I I I'm not gonna say I like I've never worked from home. Like there was the opportunity, you know, you were sick, you had stuff to do, whatever. But it was it wasn't fully remote for me, at least, uh until COVID. And it was forced, you know, and then everybody was working from home and trying to adapt and and and learn. And I don't know. I I I guess a lot of leadership used to happen through through just physical presence and and being there, whether you know, we like to admit it or not. And when I was in the military and when I was at waste management, it was just managing drivers. It everything was was very physical. You were there before the sun came up, and and you would walk the yard and you made sure that drivers were doing what they needed to do and that everything was being safe and you would have conversations face to face because when you're dealing with safety, I mean, you need face-to-face conversation, and you lose a lot of that online is yeah, I can see you, you know, and and our faces, but you you lose a lot of the nonverbal, and you know, you have a driver say, Yeah, you know, whatever, but underneath they're like, screw this, you know, and I don't know, but it's just people see how how you carry yourself and you see how they carry themselves, and and if people disappeared when things got hard, or or I don't know, it's just so much more value in in being in person, at least for me. And and like I said, the the authority, a lot of it came just from your your presence alone.

John Moore 7:09

Yes, yes, absolutely. Do you think um going into this whole virtual world, it has changed the authority of leadership?

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Because it doesn't have that same thing like it used to.

Ryan Calkins 7:27

I think in in a way it does because it I feel like in in person, at least for me, I can't speak for everybody else, but I feel like you can build trust quicker in person and interacting with people and what you share and what people reciprocate. And it it just it it goes farther for me than meeting somebody online or getting, you know, emails back and forth where you lose a lot of kind of that that interpersonal relationship building, I guess. And it they're just if I don't see you and you're just somebody online that I talk to and communicate with, even if you're my boss, I don't have the same investment in you. And yeah, you know, I mean, I'll do what I need to do to keep my job, but it's like, why am I gonna go above and beyond for John when I don't even know them? You know?

John Moore 8:21

And I agree with that. I think that it changes dynamically. I think it changes um how leadership use that word, and then we're thinking of the same word, how they trust their employees, because you can't, it's not to keep an eye on them as if you are micromanaging, but it's for the purpose of learning their habits, learning their ways, um, being able to see their facial expressions that they like something or don't like something, and all those wonderful, you know, human facets that we need, you lose. I mean, don't get it twisted. I love remote. But at the same time, there is some loss there. There's loss in leadership, leadership's authority. Uh, it's a loss in trust. Uh, there's a there's the using the trust policy, but not knowing what your staff members are doing because you can't physically see them. Uh it's it's a huge change. It really, really is.

Ryan Calkins 9:14

And it was harder for me. The like the the transition uh, you know, with COVID, because I was at uh the the consulting firm at the time, and you know, in person, we were in the office. Everybody could see each other working. I could walk over to your office, we could talk about an issue, we could work through it right there, hammer something out, and and everybody saw each other working. And it was just easier to, yeah, it was easier to to collaborate and and move things forward. And then the struggle for me with the transition to to online became it felt like we had so many meetings that we never had before. And it was constant status updates because without you and I in person talking, it's like, okay, well, John doesn't know what I'm doing unless, okay, well, I just finished this or I'm working on this project. And like that, just it was it was a minor thing, but it was tedious for me. And I like I hated sending status updates, and and it just, I don't know, it it felt like more hovering, even though we weren't present, you know?

John Moore 10:19

Yeah, yeah. I I think too, when you're when you're talking about it, it makes me think about uh the change of it all, and then how you felt so isolated, uh, not because of COVID, but you feel isolated because you don't have, hey, can I, hey, could you, what are you doing? It's none of those things are there anymore. So the isolation is there too. Um, and I rem I kind of remember that feeling like, dang, I can't go and just ask, you know, so-and-so, let's look at this report together and like not set up a meeting, because that's another thing that, you know, virtual does everything is set up a meeting, set up a meeting where we could just come into the office and say, hey, let's look at the report. Let's look at this, let's just do this. That went out of the way. Um, but I want to come back on that leadership component because I think the, and then I'm gonna ask this question. I want to touch on a little bit more. I think on back onto the leadership, that they really lost a lot of their authority in a lot of ways because the the presence of that person um being there or could come and see if you're slacking or whatever is gone. Now it's like she doesn't know what I'm doing. Now people are doing two and three jobs while they're on one job, right? Um I hear people in the Philippines and the and the cockadood-doos are in the back, and all of these crazy things are happening because now everybody's working remote. I think it's the pros and there's some cons to it, but I think leadership has gotten uh a huge kick in the butt uh from it because they can't really, they can't really manage. Um, they can't manage. Now, call centers, I find, do quite well because they have systems that can discern whether or not someone's at their desk for a period of time. They can, they can record calls, they can kind of be more um interactive and and kind of follow what's happening. But if it's not, if it's labor-intensive or it's something that's not that way, it's hard to manage people and it's hard for you to stay in that respect vein. What do you think?

Ryan Calkins 12:20

I I think that's right. The like the the authority piece was was a challenge. And like looking back from for me personally, the the biggest struggle was it it felt kind of like losing the control. And I I don't mean that in like a command and control sense, but you control like your narrative, right? When you when you're present. Because if I walk over to your office, I can bug you for a minute, you know, but I get the response then when I need it, where I send you an email, I have no idea what you're doing, and I'm waiting for you to respond, or I send you a chat and it says you're available, but you don't respond to me for three hours. I'm like, John, I need this answer, you know. So went over to your office a cubicle and then bull. And and I I I think the struggle with that control was really trying to recreate the the physical presence digitally, which is kind of impossible, right? And I don't know. I mean, I I I guess for me, I had to learn to adapt in the sense that it forced me in emails and chat and in phone conversations to be more clear in what it was that I was seeking. And I was always a person that kind of struggled with articulating exactly what I needed, but being there in person, being able to talk through, it was easy to get that out. And when you lose that interaction, it became a roadblock for me to getting things done until I'm like, okay, well, I need to redraft this and put this out in a way, or I need to make sure that I have notes that I can be clear in exactly what I need and how I need it. And it just made me essentially force myself to be more intentional and consistent in what I was doing.

John Moore 14:07

No, I 100% agree with you. And then you made me think about um not only the intention behind it, but then the for me, we went from being able to talk to one another, everything is in email. And me, I can't stand everything in email. One, if it's too big of an email, I don't want to read anymore. I was coming to your office. It's like it's too much. I'm coming over. What are you trying to say? What's up, what's up? That's gone. You don't have that anymore. Um, to your point, now I'm doing the chat or something, I'm trying to get your attention. You are probably gone off and having lunch with your girlfriends because you're not working, right? So it's like, where are you? Um, so no, I I I remember very distinctively hating the fact, damn, everything was an email, everything is an email. And hey, did you get my email? Did you get my email? Then when we get the email, you can't understand the email, and it still is a conversation. It's still a conversation. And back then we were able to sit down and say, well, what's going on? What, you know, what is it at? Now no one wants to pick up the phone, nobody wants to be on camera. It's like, oh my God. It's like, it's it's really, it makes it more difficult. And I know someone's watching saying, I love it. You know, I don't want to see my boss, I don't want people to see me. But it also loses the social angle of it and the socialization of it. Uh, it becomes more of an island you are on by yourself. Uh, it doesn't feel good. It really, really doesn't. And I I can't understand people who can track better emails than tracking a conversation. That that to me blows me because it's like having a conversation is more memorable than you're remembering that email. What do you think?

Ryan Calkins 15:48

Yes. I think well, in the short term, but when you need to go back and find it, you can't pull a conversation back, you know, where an email is there.

John Moore 15:57

Well, true. And but you can always go back and say, you know, based on our conversation, that kind of an email, yes. But I think sometimes it's I mean, it's just this whole bombarding of emails. It's like you never ever get done.

Ryan Calkins 16:09

Well, it's true. And but I also feel like it an email is harder. Like, yeah, I like I said, I force myself to be more clear and and whatnot in my emails, but it's still like I find myself redrafting and redrafting just to make sure there was nothing in it that could even be remotely offensive. Where having a conversation, it's you can typically tell, you know, when somebody's being rude and crass or whatever, where an email, sometimes somebody's is just talking or or you know, typing. You're like, what an asshole. But they didn't mean anything rude by it at all.

John Moore 16:42

Exactly. And thank God for Chat GPT now. I mean, thank God for AI, because it's like we don't have to worry about any of that anymore. Change the tone to this, make it sound like this.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

I mean, I love it.

Ryan Calkins 16:59

Do, but I also hate receiving something that was clearly AI generated. I'm like, seriously? Well, you know, I mean, it's it's got the the same tone and delivery and key phrases, and you're just like, really? You couldn't even like use AI and and change it so it's somewhat personalized? I don't know.

John Moore 17:19

No, because my I like how mine does. It's like it takes that little block. It says, Would you like me to respond? I'm like, yes. Whatever you want to say. Love it. I love it. No, yeah, because I mean everything is email, and that's just like, golly. But I struggle with the whole um that part of corporate was the emailing and the uh lack of being able to. It's not that I need to uh I don't know, it's not that I need to necessarily, because I can I've worked remotely for years. I I appreciated, you know, being able to work at home, but dang, sometimes it's good to be able to say, come on, let's go have lunch, or come on, I'm coming to your office and we have a conversation. Again, listening to my staff, hearing, you know, voices is one thing, but I want to see your face, I want to see your body language. That was important to me.

Ryan Calkins 18:12

I mean, it it still is to me. Like I prefer to, I'm not opposed to remote work. Like, I for me, hybrid works best because I can have some days where I could be home, do what I need to do, et cetera, you know. But I also like having that interaction and being able to meet up with people and not have to sync it with an online schedule and everything else. You're, I mean, you're there, you can plan it, you can make it consistent. Like for I what I what I found myself doing with fully remote work for a while, it's like I'm working, but then I look over and I see tidying that I need to do or something else that I would never in a million years like want to do. I'm like, oh, I got well, I gotta go do that. Like, I'll come back to this work. And I would just find every distraction possible in my house to where it's like, okay, well, I can't be here. I need to go to a coffee shop. So I would go to a coffee shop and get work done. So I'm still going somewhere. I'm just not going to the office, but I'm going to a pseudo office to do stuff, you know.

John Moore 19:16

Did you find it difficult turning it off and on in this new virtual world, uh, turning work off?

Ryan Calkins 19:26

I think I did initially, but it was more a carryover from even, you know, physical. It had nothing to do with the the it was my personal boundary and continuing to do work rather than a physical boundary of being in work or or online. It was it was me finally getting to a point to where I could say, at this time, like I'm done. I'll respond to everything else tomorrow early in the morning, whatever. And once I established my own boundary on when I was going to work and when I wasn't going to work, and you know, unless shit at the fan and I actually had to work to make it up. But on a normal day, I had my time regardless of where I was. The problem that I found is that I like my house and I like all the things that I have here. And it's easy to get distracted and do other things where when you're in the office, I I will say the the a negative is if you have somebody that you know is overly chatty that never gets work done and then they don't let you get work done, that can be a pain in the office, but that's also a boundary setting thing, right? Where you can let people know, like, hey, I would love to talk to you, but I have to get this done, or or you know, come back at whatever time. And I know we did an episode on boundary setting before, but that's essentially it. It's like when you allow people to overstep, they will continue to do it. And I don't I don't mean overstep like like, you know, they're getting out of line or or out of tone or rude. It's just the the more you give, the more people will will take, and and not even intentionally or maliciously.

John Moore 21:06

No, I don't think so either. But do you think also too going back to the leadership component of the virtual world, if you will, from the office to the Zoom uh meetings in the virtual, um, do you also find, I'm coming back on that trust level. How does the, and you you touched on this roof, I want to bring it back up, but how do how do we trust our employees in this new virtual world? Um, how do we get to that level of trust that work is going to get done, that you know, the availability is gonna be there? How do we get there since now we can't see them in the cubicle and see the top of their heads? You know, we can't see them and touch them like we used to. How do you think that's effective?

Ryan Calkins 21:50

Well, I mean, part of it is like I said, I I didn't really like the reporting in and and Things like that. But really, the the status report is a way of saying, like, this is what I'm doing. You know, take comfort in knowing that that I'm getting these things done. I mean, obviously, you need to see the end result of what that is, and not somebody that's just pushing, you know, the the ball down the road or whatever and not actually getting anything done. Um, I mean, part of it is the status report, but also receiving the the deliverable.

John Moore 22:30

And and I agree. And then the quality and the quantity of the deliverable would help build the trust as well. Because if you're seeing that you haven't had to tell an employee over and over again to have reports done or have these things completed, and you're seeing things being done in a timely fashion and the availability is there, you can start to build. But then when you see the opposite there, even if I'm seeing a status report, but you're never available, even if you're seeing a status report, the quality of what you're giving me sucks out loud, right? Um, so there's this kind of it's a there's this balancing act trying to figure out, okay, so what do we do with this? Because you have some people to take advantage of this whole virtual world and they're not, you know, really participating in doing the job that they say that they're doing. And then you have some people who are doing awesome jobs, but sometimes they're being hindered because we've had a couple of bad apples. So now we're kind of hawking and hawkish over everyone and not just, you know, those individuals. It's just it's a it's a different, it's a different kind of approach, but it's one in which makes you all say, dang, you know, what what are we doing here? Because you don't have your eyes on your staff. And it's again, not to micromanage them, but just to be able to manage your staff visually.

Ryan Calkins 23:51

Well, I don't yeah. No, I I agree. I I I think, like I said, I I agree that I think physical presence is was better for for leadership for me also. But I've also talked to people where, you know, they think that the the loss of of physical presence also exposes weak leadership. And it may. I mean, having somebody physically there, I don't know. Maybe it was just the fact that that they were nearby, and maybe it kept them in order. Yeah, and they they weren't necessarily good leaders at all. And it that could be the case.

John Moore 24:30

Well, I mean, and I agree with that. Uh, but then also, too, I think that was the whole mechanism of it, too. You know, that was the the sense of coming in late, your boss will see you, you know, that kind of stuff. Well, when we're virtual, unless you're doing call center work, they can, you know, clock what time you're clocking in and you know taking a call and all that kind of stuff. But other than that, you're on your own. There's a whole honesty policy kind of thing. I think it's called honesty, yeah, that honesty thing imagine. But other than that, nobody knows what you're doing.

Ryan Calkins 25:02

Yeah. And well, that that's part of the thing. Like I've had that conversation with people. And I mean, there's been times where I've done it myself, but you know, there's the the expectation that you're they're you're at your computer from the time that the office opens until the time that the office closes. And we all know that that's not really what's happening, right? Not all the time, anyway. Not always, yeah. Well, sometimes you you have stuff to do. So you make up those hours later at night or you do it over the weekends and disappointment or whatever. You know, and I don't know. Like, I used to have the the conversation with people where he's like, well, what difference does it make when I'm working if I'm getting it done? And I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, I guess you have a point. And then I'd find myself doing it. I'm like, yeah, I mean, I'd I enjoy having the convenience of being able to work when I need to work or, you know, when I choose to work. And as long as I'm providing you with what you need by the deadline that it's due in a uh uh, I don't want to say condition, but uh uh uh quality that is expected. Does it matter if if I finished at two in the morning versus five p.m.?

John Moore 26:13

And you know, and that's uh that's a debate, to be honest with you, because the the first thing I think of is someone saying uh the time that you are to work is from this to this, and that's what you're getting paid for, right? I could just hear it, I could hear it. And those are the hours in which you're supposed to be. But then this new generation is like what you just stated. Well, if I get it done, why does it matter? Uh I think it's it's it's it's a form of discipline and getting things done, right? And then getting things done within the work hours so that if you had questions, whatever, whatever, there's no excuses to say, oh, I did this at five o'clock in the morning, I did this at six o'clock, whatever. I couldn't reach out to so-and-so, you know, so therefore there was a delay and all of those different things. I think there's this balancing act of those two things, to be honest with you. You just, you just you don't know because, you know, to your point, you could say, well, whenever I got it done, it got it done, right? Yeah, but still, someone else says, but your work hours are from this to this. And when you're not available during those work hours, because we're doing, you know, possibly an appointment, kits, whatever, yeah, there could be some difficulties there.

Ryan Calkins 27:23

Yeah. I so I mean, I obviously the the the biggest gaps are if a meeting is mandatory or whatever it is where you need to actually be behind your computer. But like you said, you you know somebody that can get on with no screen. So who knows? It could be in Hawaii with a black screen just listening to a call.

John Moore 27:43

Absolutely. I mean, absolutely. I mean, any of those things could be a facet. Uh, and that again goes into that whole trusting of your employee. But how do I trust my employee if I have never met them, have I not physically so somebody says, well, what did what's meeting, what does this meeting mean mean differently than us being online? It means everything, it means the world. I mean, you can see someone, you can, you know, see again their body language, you can see how they interact with others, you can see the inconsistencies and the consistency, you can physically see it.

Ryan Calkins 28:14

Yeah. And there's a difference, yeah. Well, I had a friend when I was at the uh at the consulting firm that went to it, was like Denver or something, and went for like a week or a week and a half and didn't tell anybody, like was just there because we were remote, you know, so it didn't matter. Like the the same work was getting done. But I mean, you weren't a half. Should it matter? I I don't know.

John Moore 28:43

Well, that one I probably can speak more to because I would allow my staff. If my staff went somewhere and they said, Well, I'm gonna work while I'm there, I'm like, okay, well, you don't have to, but they're like, No, I want to work. And they would work while they were um somewhere else. Maybe they had to go take care of their mom or they had to take care of mama's appointment. So they went out of town, but they still were working. They were just they would talk to you about it before. Talking about it before, exactly. I'm in London to see a concert, and I'm not basically I'm not anywhere because what if you say, well, hey, I need you to come in today? That's where you would get busted.

Ryan Calkins 29:19

Right. No, well, I mean, that that that's what I'm saying, right? So that same situation where the the the person was gone, but you didn't know about it and then found out after the fact, that's that's the same situation, but would you have a problem then because you didn't say, Yeah, you know, go ahead and do it. This is true.

John Moore 29:35

And and then it there there goes the trust. Because what if you would have just said, especially to me, hey, I'm going to go see this concert, but I'm still gonna work, but I'm gonna be out of town. Is it okay? I'd be like, Yeah, just you know, make sure that we stay in contact. I probably would have said yes. Yeah, to just communicate that to me. But what if I needed you that day to come into the office and I know you're supposed to be local and you're in London watching the damn concert.

Ryan Calkins 30:05

Or I mean on our dime. Yeah, or or if you're three hours away, whatever it is, and you can't make it. I mean Yeah, whatever.

John Moore 30:13

I I tr I had um I had a friend actually, and I think I might have told you this. He moved from here from Los Angeles and he moved to Texas and um yeah, didn't tell the people.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

Just work work working away. I said, now what if they call your ass into the office? Then what? Well, hopefully they give me 24 hours so I can fly out. Yeah, right.

John Moore 30:45

So it's it's a it's a very precarious situation. Um, you know, this this whole change. I think it was beneficial in a lot of ways, and then also it it created created this um, I don't know, this this lack of socialization. Some people loved it. They really love the fact that I don't have to see people. I don't have to. I was like, wow, that's kind of deep. Some people liked it, some people don't. I prefer I prefer virtual, but I prefer to have the availability if I needed to fly into an office, I would. And my on my terms. Not that I had to be there three days out of the week and then two days off.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

I really like virtual now.

Ryan Calkins 31:29

I mean I I guess from a a personal standpoint, it it the change to remote was a a little difficult. Um you know, because I mean the the when you're used to being around everybody and being a team builder and focusing on on camaraderie and and uh just helping others, there is a sense of of I guess loss of of of relevance and uh I don't know, like like like you're losing some type of influence in in keeping that team together when you're not with the team and everything is is remote, and it's just I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. It's just something that I felt then that I struggled with.

John Moore 32:20

So did you feel like you do you feel that it loses a sense of respect for the leader?

Ryan Calkins 32:26

I don't know if I necessarily felt like I lost any respect. It was just more I I I guess it was part of of a sense of of purpose at work. And yeah, you know, being the a a leader and and a manager of people, it's like at least for me, I was invested in the people that I was managing, right? And it meant something to me. And being around those people drove me to be a better leader, motivated you, and part of that it it just when it isn't there, it just feels weird to send a message on on like an email or a chat. And it's like, hey, just checking in. You need anything, and uh I don't know. It it feels equivalent to like posting a LinkedIn message and just leaving it there for somebody to engage, you know, or not. I don't know. It uh it's just a a weird dynamic. It and I have no idea if anybody else feels like that. It just that's how it felt for me, kind of transitioning to that remote style of work where it was just this this weird sense of of loss. I I don't know how else to describe it.

John Moore 33:38

No, no, actually I agree with you. I I was thinking about the the number of uh luncheons that I took my staff out to lunch and we went to lunch together. So that part of camaraderie, team building, and you know, having relationships and all those kind of things were very, very important. And they do go away. Now, I mean, you can have, of course, a virtual lunch, but it's nothing like us all going to, we used to go to Macaroni Grill and just, you know, vegging it out, eating it out, and we're just having a good time and we're talking work and personal and all of that. And it does, it feels good, and you you still, you know, are part of the leadership and the leadership component is still there. Um virtually, I want to go back to that. I think that people, I think some leadership does lose that authority, to be honest with you, because again, out of sight, out of mind. Out of sight, out of mind. One, you can't see what their comings and goings are, they can't see your comings and going. No one is keeping a tap on each other. It's I think sometimes that uh that that is there is, excuse me, that there is a lack of or there's a form of loss of authority and respect. Maybe not to you personally, I'm just saying, you know, just generally on leadership. Right. No, I I understand.

Ryan Calkins 34:54

I guess so with the the the the shift uh to online, and you kind of mentioned the the trust piece. And so it I don't know. I mean, I I guess there's kind of a a a forced sense of moving from presence mattering more to to trust mattering more, just because the presence is forced to be less. So you have no choice but to trust more, right? And I guess every instance of somebody earning that trust and and showing that they're committed to doing what they're doing, providing the deliverables as expected, the the more trusting you get, and the more I guess the easier it becomes to do that remote work, right? So you adapt and just build through that experience.

John Moore 35:52

I agree, but I still find it difficult to find that balance of trust, to be honest with you, when someone is not there, because you're really banking on the fact that and I and I I know someone who's gonna, you know, give us a message saying, well, you know, I get my work done, and that's great, you do, but what about all the others that don't? Right. And so therefore, being in leadership, you you everything is on an honesty policy. You're hoping that everyone is doing what they're supposed to do, regardless, period. But then when you go into this whole virtual world where you have no uh no form of managing, that's just not, it's just a it's a different kind of feel. It's a whole different feel. It's a whole different feel.

Ryan Calkins 36:40

Well, when you say no form of managing, wouldn't they argue that management is virtual?

John Moore 36:47

Yeah, but I still by me being more old school in that respect, that the the whole the manager's office is there, you know, they'll see you and your comings and your goings and and the interactions. I I'm unfortunately from that era. Um, so therefore, that's what has been ingrained, which I don't mind it, because it it creates the responsibilities that we all should have. But at the same time, um it's hard to not see what your employees are doing back to your statement and trust them and trust that, you know, even though I'm doing progress reports, even though I'm doing status reports, even though yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, but I don't know what I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 37:39

And and I mean, we're both coming from physical to to remote, right? And being forced to to change. And I don't know, like I would hate to be a new employee now coming into an environment that's already remote, right? And I I don't I don't mean to knock anybody that that is doing that, but I'm saying, at least for me, where where I'm coming from and the experience I have, I feel like a lot of leadership is just kind of passively absorbed just through the presence of of other leaders and seeing experience, where I feel like a lot of that can be lost in in remote, right? And you're just like a little rectangle on a screen. And it just, I don't know, it feels to me like remote work compresses uh uh kind of leadership behavior, right? So weak communication is amplified. And and the more that you struggle online, it's like immediately seen and it's it's a quick way to lose respect. And and I feel like people feel it when they see others, you know, struggling. Where when you're in person, I I don't see now I'm struggling to articulate it. So now I look like the the weak communicator, but it it's just the the like if the communication is unclear and and and inconsistent, it's everybody else that that's online sees it, right? So you got 20 or 30 little boxes where the the clearer you are, it's like, oh well, that person really knows what they're talking about. You know, they they should do a podcast.

SPEAKER_03 39:19

Yes.

Ryan Calkins 39:20

But uh, you know, and others, it's like, oh, that person shouldn't be on screen at all. They should never talk. Exactly.

John Moore 39:27

And it's also too interesting to see uh dynamically how people interact with leadership virtually versus in the physical. I mean, the interaction has changed too, to be honest with you. Um, where it was, like you said, more of the presence and having the presence. I love what you said about um uh seeing other leaders and learning their habits and learning their ways. All of that is gone when it goes into virtual. The only way you figure that out is if somebody told you versus you observing and seeing. You know what? I like the way I, you know, I watched how you, you know, you were talking to so and so. I like that. I'm gonna pick that up. You know, those little nuggets you get from being in the present, where when you're in the virtual, I mean, granted, somebody's gonna say in our messages saying, well, you know what, when I'm in meetings, I'm a very observant. I get that. I'm not disagreeing with any of that, but there is a difference. There is a stark difference from being present and absorbing someone else's energy, their abilities, their techniques. You you get that from that. You somebody just talking on the screen is just like somebody talking on a screen.

Ryan Calkins 40:42

Well, it's it's all the the subtle stuff. It's the the the confidence, the the the tone, the the demeanor, the the even the reputation. Just I mean, seeing how people are, and I'm not saying you have to emulate everything that everybody does, but you just pick up what works and you see how people respond. And when you're in person, you you just I don't know, there's like a a vibe to it that that you feel, you know, where online you know I feel like half the time people zone out, they're working on other stuff during a meeting. You can see everybody's eyes over to the side, you know, doing something else. That's what I'm talking about. And I I don't know, like when we first even no, even before we went remote, I had a boss that he would schedule one-on-one meetings, and the whole time he'd be typing away, uh-huh, uh-huh. And I'm like, are you even listening to what I'm saying? Like, why are we on this call? And I don't know. It was just like a very it was like offensive to join a meet. I'm like, that would be a good situation for me to where if the screen was black and I didn't have to see you and that you weren't paying attention and didn't give a shit what I was saying anyway, fine. But when I have to sit here and I'm looking at you and you're typing away, clearly doing something else, and I'm like, this is supposed to be like a performance check-in feedback thing.

John Moore 42:07

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right. But and the um, I think that I think that the change of going from the the office, if you will, to the Zoom call has been very beneficial for this generation, lesser our generations or generations before us. And it's not because of age thing, it's not because of any of that, it is because of traditions, it's because of um uh socialization that we were taught. If it wasn't from our you know, childhood and inter interacting with other peers, it was then when we became older and we got uh our cult workers, that whole thing was a buildup, build-up, build up, build up. Um, and it's just different. It's totally different, totally different. And I think that we could appreciate the past as well as we can appreciate the present, but I think that the younger generation now appreciates more of this virtual because there's less that they have to do uh and more that they can feel like they're focused. And for us, we need a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a little bit of this, and a little bit of that.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

That's fair.

Ryan Calkins 43:20

I mean, I I semi-disagree with the the age piece, only because I feel like when we were coming up, age was a kind of determining factor for a sense of automatic respect for somebody because you assume they know more and they're more knowledgeable. And we had office size, like we talked about before, that was a a measure of somebody's knowledge and you know, tenure and title and things like that, where we just automatically provided respect for for that person. And I do like where you're going with with, you know, kind of the the, I guess, newer generation in terms of of uh remote work and whatever, because the sense of of what we grew up and automatically respected seems to be fading in the sense that when you're online, it it's more are you competent? Like, how can you help me? Are you trustworthy? All of these things that are are, yeah, maybe they're probably healthier than what we grew up with and giving blind respect and and trust. But at the same time, like I said, I I I I do think that that is absolutely a benefit for for younger people is how is this person helping me and really focusing on the the things that matter? But I do feel like they're like we also talked about, there's a big gap in what they're potentially losing by not having the the in-person.

John Moore 44:52

I guess those in-persons, those things, because they really, and I agree with you, they lose some really important social value and social skills that you very seldom can you get. You know, when you see certain bosses that you admire or mentor after and so forth, and you see how they interact and how they do different things, they're little nuggets you're gonna want to take for your own time when you become that same. But if you, you know, somebody can say, oh yeah, but I can see that in the in the video call. No, you can't. It's a different feel. So it's something different about being there with that person. So I totally get that. Totally get it. But I find it interesting that we're talking about this because this is something that I believe probably more people are dealing with uh than we can even believe about this whole transition of being in the office, being in the boardroom, and now we're on a Zoom call. Am I as important as I was before? Am I less important than I was before? I mean, a lot of people they put their stake in in their whole career from a leadership standpoint, and and that was about having the office. That was about, you know, having interactions in which we no longer may have uh because of the world that we're in right now. But um, then you have some people they're not phased. They're not phased at all. So I it it it it is, I wish we can do some surveys and figure out, you know, who's doing what and how do they, how are they adjusting with it because it's changed, but it's changed some for the good and some for the bad.

SPEAKER_02 46:21

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 46:23

So I I I think we're we're on the same page in in not trying to deliver a message that remote work ruined leadership, but it has certainly changed leadership and how people show up and and are are effective.

John Moore 46:40

And a perceived, uh absolutely, and perceived as well. Uh, I like what you said earlier about uh giving an automatic respect because of our traditions. We said age, we said so many different factors. Um, and and usually if they had that office, it was automatic that we were like, oh, that must be somebody important. Yeah. Because nobody, just no one just gets an office. It has to be someone that was of importance. And then coming up in my ranks, only certain levels, AVP, VP, uh director or or SVP, they were only ones that were getting offices.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

So once you got to those statuses, that was another thing that gave you that automatic respect as well.

Ryan Calkins 47:25

So, do you think for for some leaders, they didn't necessarily lose uh uh authority when work went remote, but rather I guess they they lost the illusion uh of authority.

John Moore 47:41

Absolutely. Absolutely, and could have been their whole everything. That was the whole purpose. You know, they they needed that for their own individual selves, which was this whole narrative of being important, the office, the status, and all of that, yeah, because that could have been the way they were groomed, and that was the way that they were mentored. Now that's gone. Now what do I have? How do I, you know, for lack of better words, how do I have the authority that I would have had if I was in the office? Because I would have had 40-something people that I would oversee. Now you oversee 40-something people, but they're all virtual, and I don't know who's who. I don't have relationships. There's a whole difference in that.

Ryan Calkins 48:23

Man, I had this boss that was over the whole uh, well, I don't I don't want to say his title because everybody wouldn't know who he was when I was there, but he uh, you know, notoriously would make his rounds so everybody would see him there. But he was also a guy that was like getting drinks after work or whatever, and he'd give you some of the secrets, and he'd be like, Hey John, you know the key to everything is you show up early and everybody sees you there, and then you gotta be there at the end of the day, so everybody sees you there. He's like, the middle of the day, go take a nap, you know, do whatever.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

Crazy.

Ryan Calkins 49:04

And I'm like, okay, so you're making your rounds, everybody sees you there. How do you maintain that same facade, I guess, when everything is remote? Not I mean, not that you have to worry about it in the waste industry because everybody has to be present because of the nature of the business, but exactly. But I mean, if you're that type of manager in a in a business that is now remote, it's like, how do you still maintain that that presence that that you relied on?

John Moore 49:33

And that's true, and I think that's why it has affected so many people differently because they staked their whole, their whole everything was on that. And now it's gone bye-bye. Just imagine what that's doing to some people. It's probably really effing them up. They're like, dang, you know, I thought I was gonna be this, I thought I was gonna be that, I thought I was gonna, and have all these, you know, uh aspirations. And then all of that has changed from one outbreak, if you will, a pandemic has totally changed that.

Ryan Calkins 50:06

Well, I mean, for for people listening, if your staff didn't see you for for two to three weeks, would your authority still hold? That's a good point.

John Moore 50:17

That's a good point. And would you feel personally that you're no longer in the same uh career pathing or mentoring that you had saw of others now in this particular vehicle? Because it changes everything. Changes everything your hopes and dreams you possibly could have had, and and aspira, and excuse me, aspired to have rather, uh, by having staff and all these wonderful things. And now, yeah, you have them, but you don't feel like you really have them. It's a difference.

unknown 50:50

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 50:51

This was a fun conversation. I feel like there's a lot to I gotta, you know, I'm running away with a a lot of stuff to continue considering.

John Moore 51:00

Listen, I always have fun conversations with you, all right? This was good. This was very good.

Ryan Calkins 51:06

Well, uh, for those of you listening, uh, until next week, leading ain't easy. But you don't have to do it alone. Thanks for tuning in to Leading Ain't Easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit reframeRise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's ReframeRise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bust Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.