The Promotion That Exposed You

Getting promoted feels like validation... until you get there and realize what you actually don't know. Ryan Calkins and John Moore talk honestly about the transition from high performer to new manager: the imposter syndrome, the peer dynamic that changes overnight, and the specific ways being good at your job can actually work against you in a leadership role.

Most leadership content tells you how to prepare for a promotion. This episode is about what happens after; when preparation meets reality, and the gap between them is bigger than you expected.

Ryan and John get into what that transition actually looks and feels like from the inside:

• The validation that turns into exposure. The moment you realize the confidence that earned you the promotion isn't the same as being ready for what comes with it, and why that gap is more common than anyone admits.
• Managing your peers. Ryan talks through what it was like to become responsible for the same people he was joking around with the day before, and how the dynamic doesn't shift gradually, it just shifts. No one really trains you for that conversation.
• Getting promoted for the wrong reasons. Tenure, technical skill, filling a seat — Ryan and John are honest about how often promotions happen without leadership readiness as a real factor, and what that costs the team downstream.
• The over-protecting trap. Ryan describes a pattern he had to unlearn: shielding his team from difficulty in ways that felt like good management but were quietly limiting their growth, and his. Delegation isn't just about your bandwidth. It's about giving people the chance to own something.
• Imposter syndrome as a constant. Not a phase you move through, but something that shows up at every new level. The question isn't how to get rid of it, it's what you do with it.

They close with a real question worth sitting with: where in your leadership role right now are you being worn the hell out, and is what you're working toward still worth it?

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

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Transcript

Ryan Calkins 0:00

Leading Ain't Easy, the show that cuts to the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, John Moore, as we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't, the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy. And sometimes where you experience some early struggles as you adapt.

John Moore 1:06

And also defining what that exposure looks like and what it really is about. You know, exposure is is developed in so many different ways, whether it's insecurities, whether there's behind the scene knowledge, whatever it may be, what is that exposure and what are you being exposed to? True.

Ryan Calkins 1:22

And and I mean that the initial promotion, sometimes it feels like validation because you are essentially being rewarded for your efforts, right? But then you get there and you're like, well, maybe this doesn't feel like validation. Cause now I go from the one that that knows everything to being the one that is supposed to know everything. And I feel like it's a it's a very different thing when you are extremely competent in what you're doing and what got you to where you are. But now it's like what got you here isn't going to be what takes you to the next level, right?

John Moore 1:56

It's not going to sustain you. It's not what it won't sustain you in that way. And I think it's the thinking. Well, that's the question I'll throw back at you. Is it, is it the is it the self-doubt of one person who says, okay, I've gotten this role, they promoted me. But then I wonder, does the self-doubt come in? And that's what starts eating up the positivities, the reward of the promotion. I wonder, is that the way that that has happened? Have you you have any examples of that or any thoughts about that?

Ryan Calkins 2:21

Well, for sure. I mean, I I I think imposter syndrome still, you know, affects me now. Late in my career, well, late. I'm only 43, but 85 years. I'm about to retire. Exactly. Anyway. Cut it out. Cut it out. I I think I think imposter syndrome is always part of a a new promotion and a new challenge because mentally you you are you know questioning yourself. And I think some of the struggles, at least what I'm looking with this topic, is what I mean by the promotion that exposes you is everybody thinks you're ready, you think you're ready, you get there, and it's like, okay, well, maybe I wasn't necessarily ready. And not just the the mental doubt and blockage that that comes with embosser syndrome, but finding out there there there's new ways to do things. Like when I was uh, you know, back in the in the military when I became an NCO and immediately became responsible for my peers, it was really a major learning moment for me. I mean, I was I was 20, so I was still a kid, you know, and now you're responsible for your unit and all of the people that you joke around with daily. It's not that you can't joke with them anymore, but it's a different dynamic that's kind of forced upon you. And now you are having, you know, conversations with them from a very different place.

John Moore 3:48

And a whole different intention, too, as well. So when you went through that transition, my first, my first thought was me being the director of training, did they train you to be a leader? Or did they just make the assumption based upon what you have done in the service that you could be an innate leader?

Ryan Calkins 4:08

I think it's a a little bit of both. I mean, in the military, there's also, you know, if you serve long enough in one position, you get promoted by default also. So I think for some people that, you know, exhibit leadership characteristics, they move up the the chain a lot faster. Others, it comes to them and you end up with people that maybe shouldn't be leaders, but they have no choice because it's either you get promoted or or or processed out, right?

John Moore 4:33

But that's the sad part, even to that last statement about um you're promoted even if you're not a good leader. And we see a lot of that in just the world that we're in right now. We see a lot of that, which is unfortunate because then you'll have the leader role, but then you'll suck at it and you'll destroy sometimes the company and being facetious, but sometimes you can destroy things in your process um because you weren't really the person that should have been in that role. Regardless of tenure, regardless of levels of experience, you know, everyone is not a leader. And there, that's why this wonderful world, we have a dynamic where leaders, they take leader roles, you know, followers or folks that are subordinates, they do that. It is there's a true order, if you will, to the game that balances out things, right? Um, because if everybody was leaders, then who's gonna do the work? And if everyone's are, you know, you know, and I'm not being harsh, it's real, you know, then who is going to do the work? And it just made me immediately think about training, because the most successful leaders, I believe, are trained to be well, right? You can have life experience, you can have uh tenure and all those wonderful things, but if you don't have the structured view of what a leader should be, right? Uh, even going through what you were saying, and that triggered a chord for me when I would teach leadership training. Uh, and that was the transition from being a peer to now being a leader, right? There's literally a transformation from those two. You were saying, you know, yeah, we we shut, we shot the shit, we talked, blah, blah, blah. But we can't do that anymore because now that may be inappropriate. Now that may now cause you to be court-martialed. Now that may be some, you know, responsibilities that could take us to other other places. So if we're not trained appropriately too, which I think also defines this whole topic, uh, it really even gives you the foundation if you're trained. If you're not, it gives you the insecurities because you feel like something is missing. What do you think?

Ryan Calkins 6:26

It does. And and I think for my situation, it's exhibiting leadership capabilities and then getting put into the position. But learning how to do something and being prepared for something is different than actually doing it. And you don't really learn the the nuances of everything until you're doing it. So, you know, I can be prepared and and ready to come have a difficult conversation with you, but then when we do it, especially the the first time, it can be very awkward, especially when you and I were, you know, uh uh peers yesterday, and now I'm coming to talk to you as your manager and having a conversation about your performance. Exactly. When yesterday we were joking about our performances and this and that, you know, and now it's like, well, now I'm responsible for holding you accountable for your performance. And it's just a different dynamic. And I think it the more you do it, the more comfortable you become with it. And I don't know if it's I'm not gonna say it's ever easy to necessarily have conversations about performance with people, but I think that you learn ways to make the conversation more palatable. And that's not even to say that it's always a negative conversation, but even people that are doing well, you want to have a conversation about what I hate to say, you know, that what what they can do more of, because it's not like you can just keep squeezing and squeezing more out of people. I I I think being able to really work on somebody even sustaining what they're doing and not necessarily trying to reach another level despite you know what corporate would would want you to do, which is always to get more out of somebody. But I think if somebody is is hitting their numbers or they're going above, it's a matter of trying to help sustain it and see what additional you know resources or whatever you you you can do to help continue to foster that.

John Moore 8:24

But that also opens uh, or and or opens the conversation or makes a thought. When we get to the levels of uh, okay, so let's say we did a performance review. The performance review was so, you know, shining bright that there was really no need for improvements. The only feedback was maintain, you're doing a great job. So then there begets an expectation from that individual that, so what's next? You know, we're are we at a ceiling point? Is there nothing else after this? I'm doing well, I'm doing well. So what's next? Do I get promoted? You know, like I'm thinking I should. And then it comes to questioning. Well, why not? You for the last six months or last, you know, two years, you said performance reviews are good. Maintain, maintain. Now I'm at my second year of you saying this. What's next? Right. And so that's another place that can be a positive or challenge for the simple fact that you may be good at what you do, but the what's next you may not be ready for, right? And so you feel you feel where I'm going with that? No, I I do.

Ryan Calkins 9:26

And for me, the the way that I I've done that historically is somebody that is continuing to hit numbers and do what they're supposed to be doing in terms of their job now, their current role. I always try to add in elements of additional work, not to take advantage of them being productive, but to provide a essentially a career path without naming it a career path that gives them additional exposure and sets them up for the next level. So as we work on developing things, it's, you know, we work together to create a joint milestone, but it's really setting them up for future success.

John Moore 10:04

And funny you used the word that that was the word that I was going to use, which is a career path, because that is the next steps. And in the career path, now we're doing the real work. Now we're doing the uh on-hands work where everything was was your buildup. So the performance reviews were really a buildup to see now that what's next and what is that, what next looks like. So now we're talking about career pathing. So here are the things that you need to be here, right? And so we start, you know, putting you into the proper trainings, whether they're LMS trainings or you go into a facilities, you know, facilities type training or facilitated training. And we start positioning that person, you know, all talking about promotion-wise, to feel more secure about what they will be doing. Also, what it does is it puts them into a realistic scenario to say, am I really ready for this, right? Without putting them in that role, because that's that's a tremendous difference, too, is if I just plop you in the role and I have the expectation for you to be successful, well, that's a lot of expectation and that's a lot of hoping and dreaming, right? But if I career path you and I put you in the right things, I set you up for success, the training, the environment, uh, test cases, whatever it may be, well, yeah, you might have a very good outcome. You may not be like how we were on the back end, like, you know, questioning should I have gotten this role or nothing like anything like that, because you have really been prepared. My bottom line to that whole statement is preparation, because it really alleviates from that employee of the sense that I'm not prepared or I'm not ready or I'm not good enough. Well, if you've done all of the prerequisites, you're good. You really, really are good. And it just really depends on that individual, you know, being able to transition from one uh dynamic of career to another. What are your thoughts about that?

Ryan Calkins 11:53

No, it's just, I mean, yes, uh, obviously the the more prepared you are, the the more likelihood of your success of success. Um, I'm just thinking of about some people that I that I knew that you know were technical experts in in things and they are able to read or or or practice and do a lot of exercises that you prepare people for. But then when it comes to interpersonal skills and things like that, it it remains a challenge. And sometimes I guess you don't fully see it until they are put into the role that you think that they can handle, and then they get in there, and they can often be the person that kind of uh avoids working with their staff and they kind of like hide in their work, and they don't necessarily have a problem delegating, and they can be okay managers in terms of production, if that makes sense, but not necessarily the best at team building.

John Moore 12:59

Yeah, but very valid point. Here's this point, too. And it's funny, again, you bring that up because it made me makes me think about the other step that I would have done, which is created either case study or andor projects that would have pulled in staff in which they've worked with before, right? And then here you have an opportunity to lead. They could have a uh a new launch of something, and we need to have, you know, people to help, you know, to do so. So therefore we bring in current staff and then this person. Now, the motivation behind that is testing that leadership skill and seeing, like you just mentioned a few minutes ago, you know, do they have the chops to lead and lead their own peers? So we do a small project. We do project based that we help build them up, which builds up skill set, gives experience, it gives the comfortability between staff and peers, or you know, now leadership or lead and peers. All of those preparations, which is really my whole philosophy about, you know, promoting of a person, is making sure that we have all things in line. And the primary things for me is the career pathing, the preparation, and the training. And we just find more and more that's not happening. That's not happening. I I have a real life experience. I just thought of this week, and this young lady she might have been there for 10 years, but she is not good with interacting with people. She's not good with giving instructions, she's not good with talking to people. But since she's been here for 10 years, she's the point person. That could be a reason why people are turning over so quickly. Because they don't like dealing with her because she's difficult to deal with. No one has trained her up to be a success. And then maintain that, like check in. Hey, how are you doing? How's your communication skills? What you know, what are we doing? How are we displaying this? Nobody's doing that. They're just so glad they're going to deal with that. They're like, okay, she got it. But not knowing there's a huge amount of attrition based upon the interactions with that individual. And there's no self-awareness with this individual, I take it. No, hell no. Unfortunately, I know this is always John saying it, but it's a generational thing. They don't see a problem in being short or being on a conversation and you're talking to someone and they just hung up. Literally hung up. And so then the person calls back and says, Oh, I'm not sure at the phone drop or you hung out. Oh, I hung up.

Ryan Calkins 15:26

Wait, so we're talking generational. Is this person is younger? Yeah, or older. Younger.

John Moore 15:31

No, I've met a lot of older people like that too. Never had an older person that hung up the phone and then say, Oh yeah, I hung up on you. Never. And maybe it's a clientele of people in which I surround myself with, but never. Maybe I'm just I just thought it was appalling. I was just like, oh my god. I mean, it was just like, oh no, I hung up. It was like, wow. I'm in mid-conversation. You just hung up the phone. Okay. Wow. So we're we're living in those dynamics too. And and for me, I don't think that we should always conform to those things. I think we need to improve. This is you know, off topic, but this is why the level of service is just so poor. It's because we don't train up people and we don't hold people accountable. The the constant rebuttal is always the generation, this is what they do. And so they conform to that versus conforming to what is quality. And quality has gone out the door because nobody wants to hold people accountable. Because they're worried, oh, we won't get anybody else in. We can't find anybody to work.

SPEAKER_04 16:38

I don't know.

Ryan Calkins 16:38

I I I I think it's deeper than that. Like it's not I feel like everything is well, not everything. I don't want to sound like a bitter old man, but we'll be we'll be messages.

John Moore 16:54

Don't send us no messages about bitter, okay? Go ahead.

Ryan Calkins 16:56

Well, no, it's it's just the quality of of everything has gone down, and it's not even necessarily the the care of customer service or staffing or anything. Maybe that's part of it, but a lot of companies are are cutting corners or changing ingredients of their products to to where everything is getting worse to make a buck. I don't know. I just, I mean, even looking at at ingredients where it's like I want to give you know my kids things, I'm like, oh, it's fine. I used to eat this when I was younger. And then you look, and like, even the ingredients in that is completely different, where a lot of stuff was more natural, not that it was healthy, but it or I don't even want to say more natural. I just feel like there's a lot more shit in there than there used to be.

John Moore 17:46

And see, I disagree because I'm I am a cereal fan and fanatic. I can eat cereal 24 hours a day. And I one of my favorites is Frosted's flakes, believe it or not. And if you remember, anyone out there, you remember Frosted Flakes used to be very thick and they would, of course, be sugar coated, but they were heavy, right? They weren't like, you know, regular flakes. So now you're like, well, what's going on? The flake has changed. And I'm being real, the flake has changed. You can feel the difference in it. It's lighter. So then you have that. Then you have a smaller box, less quantity within it. Same with um, I think it's called strengthflation. Less chips, big bag, or big bag, less chips. Same scenario. McDonald's. You know, every time we see the pictures, the fries are beautifully stationed in there. When you get the French fries, they're below the arch. It's not even full. So everything is in that place. And I just think, I just really, really think it's sad. Um, it's and that is true with the shrinkflation, but that's across the board. It's in levels of service, it's in levels of food. We pay more and we get less. So we pay to get more.

Ryan Calkins 18:56

Shrinkflation. Last week we bought the corn dogs from Trader Joe's, and two months ago, that same corn dog covered like two-thirds of the stick, right? Come on. Pull it out, and there was a comically small corn dog where it was like a third of the stick.

John Moore 19:12

And I'm what and what was the pro the price? Was it either the same or was it more?

Ryan Calkins 19:17

I don't remember if it was more, but it was, I mean, it definitely was at least the same, but it was comical. It was it looked more round than like a corndog. And I'm like, oh, okay, you know, it's a one-off. Of course, the other three in the pack were all that size.

John Moore 19:34

And it's oh, so that was intentional. That's what they're doing. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, it's just sad. So, you know, it it's it's that also to your point, you have a very valid point. Uh, a lot of things are being affected, and work is also being affected by that because we're losing the quality, um, but we are paying the price of the loss of quality. Who's paying the price is your consumer, or the customer is losing the quality of the service level because you have a poor uh person, poor service level type mentality person who's not thinking about, you know, I want to give my customer the best.

Ryan Calkins 20:13

Well, true. But when you right, so if if we apply that same logic to people as a as a resource in business and how it's become more and more common to lay off, like historically, layoffs were tied to companies that were struggling, right? They had no choice but to lay off. But we're looking at everything right now where companies are still profiting, they have not taken a dip, they're laying people off. And I don't blame people for not having the same loyalty in in companies anymore. Like historically, I've had loyalty to to the people that have hired me because I don't know, maybe maybe it's dumb. That's how I grew up. I feel like it's dumb now looking back, but I don't know. It's just I don't blame the shift in in mindset for people that aren't loyal to companies anymore. Because when you can lay off 8,000 people and still be extremely profitable in a quarter. Yes. Well, I'm just talking about Meta this week, laid off 8,000 people, and I think that they still had like a 16% rise in profit or something last quarter, and it's just the the need to lay off is not there.

John Moore 21:28

And and the funny part about that is it's not really it's it's about more profit because you think about it the less FTEs you have, the more money you keep in your pocket. So therefore you have that, plus you're increasing in levels of other areas, whether stock, whatever, you know, whatever other areas it is. But the sad part about it again is who gets the brunt of that? You know, who gets the brunt of the lack of staff? I was calling some people today, and oh, you know, call got 30 calls in queue and all that. It's because you are not staffed up. You know, you have all these different things. So it's just really, really sad. Um, and I think that the direction that companies are going, and forgive me, you know, anyone out there that this greed level is so unsustainable, to be honest with you. The amount of greed and the amount of money that everything is about, and the level of service is just going down, but the greed level is going up, something is gonna break. And I've been hoping and praying that people will finally get hooked on phonics about gas. Folks, you know, we're on the West Coast and gas is six, seven, and eight dollars a gallon. And you hear the national average says, oh, it's four. No, we're six, seven, and eight uh dollars for gas. And that's ridiculous. But here's the key, folks. We were four dollars and five dollars way before this even happened, and nobody's ever quantified why is that? If we continue to pay for, if we continue to participate, whether to your point of loyalty to a company, and I want to go back to that statement. I don't think it was dumb or stupid to be loyal. Think about what was being given at that time, right? You you think about the freshness you were, and and you know, all that great stuff, and and you were expecting a career out of it. And then things change. You know what then when those things change, we also change.

SPEAKER_04 23:21

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 23:24

I mean, I don't know, I I I I guess I struggle with it sometimes because I I don't want to say it was blind loyalty, I think it was just more convincing myself that I was in good situations because I had been there. And it wasn't even like a uh entitlement thing. It was just if I continue to to do what I'm doing in this situation, you know, those opportunities will come. And it it just isn't reality. Like you can't be passive in the things that you're trying to achieve. But I I was also not a person that was ever willing to walk on somebody to to get to to the next level.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

So could I be farther along in my career than where I'm at?

John Moore 24:14

Yeah, and that's a big mate because we really don't, we never know the outcome. We really don't. You could cut people's throats to get you ahead, get ahead, and you still not get ahead. Or it could be a temporary, you be there for a moment and then you're out. Yeah, so you know, if you're cutting people, believe you me, that same logic will come back to you. So it's just not always the best of their approach. But let's go back real quick to our topic, uh focusing back on that. This also was a part of it, folks. So I'm saying, you went on the tangent. Yeah, we went on tangent, but it still makes sense, right? But if you also think about naming the reality of what happens when you're promoted and then being promoted and then questioning whether or not you can do it, or questioning whether or not the reasonings behind it, or whatever that may be, I think that that's something that we need to explore more at, which is, you know, I can't, I can't outwork my staff. And that's a very good topic about that, because a lot of times people will have the ability to feel like, well, the staff is not going to be able to do it, so I'll do it. But then that causes burnout. Remember, we talked about burnout some time back, about, you know, being that person who doesn't delegate appropriately. Delegation is excellent because delegation also not only takes off some of the weight from you, but it also gives responsibility to your staff and ownership of things. What do you think about that? The whole re you know, the naming reality, and then looking at the fact of um, you can't do it all on your own and you have to be able to know how to delegate and the purpose behind it.

Ryan Calkins 25:50

No, I I agree. I I I think some early struggles that I had were kind of doubling down on things that got me the promotion in the first place. And and one of them was going out of my way to help others and always being that person that others could rely on and focusing on kind of I want to say team development to the point that I was trying to protect staff from things. And when I got into managerial positions and was still continuing to try and protect people to probably their detriment also in not putting them in positions to do more, but safeguarding to make sure that they were doing the things that that they needed to do. By default, I was also kind of screwing myself over because it wasn't even that I didn't trust people, I thought that I was doing the right thing in safeguarding and keeping the the team together. I I don't know if that makes sense, but it I don't know. I I think as my career continued to to develop and pushing people more to hit stretch objectives that that really there's there's satisfaction for people in in working harder to achieve something. And when you don't provide that opportunity, you think that you're doing a good thing when you're really not, and finding that right balance between protecting your staff in in terms of of damaging things that that can occur and overstepping in the sense of protecting them from themselves, which can become that that detrimental piece is what I struggled with for a point in my career and and had to overcome.

John Moore 27:54

When you were, if you will, covering for them or and or nurturing them, right? What do you think would have happened if, you know, I don't know, big boss knew? What do you think would have happened?

Ryan Calkins 28:10

It probably would have told me to lead better. I don't I don't know.

John Moore 28:14

But were you also being that way because you were worried about the repercussions that big boss would see or say about that individual employee?

Ryan Calkins 28:22

Uh a lot of it was my own experience in getting stretched too thin and uh not wanting to put like I had no problem when issues would occur and I would take the blame for it, right? Somebody did something wrong, and I'm like, it was on me, I didn't train them, da-da-da-da-da, and I would take care of it and it wouldn't happen again. And that part was, I still feel okay in terms of the protective piece. The the part that I struggled with initially was a little bit uh of the delegation in the sense that I was worried about stretching people too thin. So I wasn't giving them the chance to tell me that they were being stretched too thin. Like I was preemptively shielding them from potential conditions that weren't present.

John Moore 29:11

Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay, that makes sense. And for me, my comparable would be being a director over training, have had, let's say, 10 years prior of being a trainer, and now being a director over training or whatever, manager over training, whatever, I had the level of experience to know what the job entail would be. So um you knew what someone, how someone could turn something around within a short period of time. You knew, you know, if someone was going to be burnt out because they had back to back six weeks' worth of training. So we knew six weeks would be your cap. You need a break, you know, those kind of things because you had had the experiences on your own. So for me, my point in saying that was delegation was never a problem because I knew the work, right? And I wasn't asking for anything that I couldn't have done or had not done on my own, right? So I didn't get into the mindscope of thinking, oh, they might be oh, you know, they might get burnt out. No, I know when you're gonna get burnt out. So therefore, when I'm doing that schedule, I'm not gonna do, you know, nine weeks worth of training back to back to back to back and not think about your voice is gonna start messing on you, your immune system is gonna go down because you don't have the proper rest. You're gonna forget things because now you're exhausted. You know, that's how I was always in that kind of a mind scope of knowing not only my staff, but knowing the work. And then knowing if I delegated something, I knew it was possible to turn out.

Ryan Calkins 30:37

Right. But as a director, you've come up and and you've learned all that. So you you know what to do with other people's. Yeah. But when you joined the workforce, you you weren't a director. Like you had to have some point where you were put into a leadership position. And I'm not gonna say, I mean, I anticipate that you had some level of uh imposter syndrome, right? But was there anything to where you felt exposed in terms of what you were actually doing and not just the way that you were internalizing?

John Moore 31:12

I think that happened a few times in my career. Um, but I did not have the luxury, and I'm not being avoidant, I did not have the luxury of dealing with that, to be honest with you. Because when you're in a world where corporate is saying, I think I said this in in previous episodes, we need to have 140 people trained in X amount of time. There's no, you know, pushback. It's figure it out, get it done, kind of thing. So you never really had the luxury to sit there and you know manage it and figure, no, you had to do it. So I never really had that luxury too often to get caught up in the weeds. That was, you know, going home and being frustrated.

Ryan Calkins 31:51

What you think? I live in the weeds. Mm-hmm.

unknown 31:56

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 31:56

No, I mean, I I don't want to say that I had the luxury to sit around and ponder. I I, you know, you're I don't know. I have been in situations where I exhibited leadership next level, et cetera, et cetera. But absent that training, you get thrown into the the fire and it's kind of, you know, live or die. And I don't know. I I I think it I struggled with a few positions in in that sense because you get there and you're no longer the one receiving clear directions, right? You're the one expected to create the directions and distribute the directions. And sometimes when you get put in a position that you're not prepared for, it becomes harder because now the eyes are on you, right? Like you are the face of this group now, officially, and not just in a capacity that's like, oh, this person keeps exhibiting these behaviors and and we should really move them up. But now you are the person that's responsible for stuff that you weren't responsible for. And I see, uh, I didn't come up in corporate. Like it was a lot of small companies that aren't set up for adequate training and preparation for leaders and and managers. It's just you are thrown in and you got to figure it out. With sometimes there, there's help and most of the time there isn't.

John Moore 33:29

And I guess where my difference comes in is that I always have been in corporate. From my first um real, real job, it was with a bank. And I had been in that same vein ever since. So that model has always been there for me. Oh, there's gotta be training. You know, there is, you know, gonna have these things in play. Uh, I didn't start seeing the lack of that formality, if you will, until developing or doing some contract work outside of that, that that wasn't there. But yeah, it was always for over 30 years, has been, you know, corporate, corporate, corporate.

Ryan Calkins 34:05

Well, have you been part of a of a corporation that promoted people based on performance and not leadership capability? I I know that you had a lot of responsibility and training, but was that after you had seen things and started to kind of develop more of a focused training as a prerequisite for people to move up?

John Moore 34:24

Not necessarily. Um, yes and no. So you had some where, yes, we exhibited uh subject matter experts, we exhibited the knowledge, we knew how to do the role, do the job. We we were pretty good at it. So therefore we would say, oh, you will be a trainer, you'll be good for that. And then you had some that when you were hired, you had an expectation that you're gonna do it and you're gonna get it done quickly. There lies the contract work because contract work is like that always. You're a subject matter expert, you should be able to come in, get it done, and there shouldn't be any kind of like real downtime for you to learn it. For an example, I remember the first contract job actually that brought me out here was working for Wammu and um never had ever done any type of training or anything. True story. And literally, we got there on a true story. We got there on a Monday, uh, no, on a Tuesday of April of 2003. They gave us a curriculum and went through the train the trainer on a Thursday. That training was to be done on that Monday. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 35:30

Nice.

John Moore 35:31

No, it wasn't no nice because it was frustrating as hell. Because I mean, I had never had training before. I had never had uh, and then it wasn't any real training at that point, but because they were all hating on us because we were making good money. We were making crazy money compared to what they were making, but that wasn't our fault. Shit. But um, you know, lose a, you know, uh uh uh leave a job and come back as a contractor if that's the case. But don't be mad at us. They used to be so mad at us because we were making good money, so they never really gave us any training.

Ryan Calkins 36:01

So you have uh is is WAMW uh Washington Mutual? Yeah, Washington Mutual.

John Moore 36:07

Okay. Which is now Chase.

Ryan Calkins 36:09

I was gonna say it's a name I haven't heard in a really long time.

John Moore 36:12

Oh, yeah, WAMO. Yeah, that's my favorite there that roar, blue and gold, roar, blue, and gold. So to answer your question, yes, I have been put in those situations in. I'm not they're not the best, um, but it shows how you can show up and how you can really kick butt and take names because in all honesty, that's a Tuesday, Thursday we did the train the trainer, Monday we had to train that course and it had to come off like you had not missed a B. And it did, with God's grace, it did.

Ryan Calkins 36:38

So, how many uh leaders do you think operate on the I guess the the need to look like a leader versus actually become one? I would say before this generation, all in this generation all would be performative in terms of of leadership?

John Moore 37:03

All would be because the thing of it is is that we all wanted to it well, maybe I'm saying it wrong. It was more we wanted to look the leadership and we wanted to be performative. We wanted that. But now people don't look the part, and you're like, you're a manager? I'm not being funny, it's like you're a manager. It's like, yeah. I'm like, oh wow, interesting.

Ryan Calkins 37:22

You don't you don't think you can lead in cargo shorts?

John Moore 37:24

Don't make me holler. Okay, with that, I'm down with the cargo shorts, but there's some other attributes you're sitting there saying, wow, okay. So it's interesting. It could be, you know, um and then also to to to kind of knock my my generation down a peg or two, is that what we get accustomed to is the visualization as to what we think leadership represents and what it should look like and what it should be, right? And although we've seen over the years, it has changed, but not changed for the good. It really, really hasn't, because we're less training leaders to be good leaders, right? Um, knowing the balance, knowing the disciplines, knowing the uh the the the way we talk to people and how we go about getting things we need to get. None of that's even there anymore. None of it's there. I talked to people, I was talking to someone maybe, I don't know, maybe a couple of months ago, a year back, and he was saying it's so hard to maintain. He owns a restaurant in PA, and he was like, it's like every day I have to always worry if somebody's gonna leave. And am I gonna hire somebody else again? And it's this constant revolving door. And so with that, that's being a leader, knowing what he's doing, he's interviewing the right people, trying to get the right folks, trying to get the right outcome, but folks don't want to work. So therefore, it's this revolving door. Go for it, go for it.

Ryan Calkins 38:54

Well, it's it's also I mean, that type of position isn't a career either. So, I mean, most people are taking those jobs when they're in college or they need a side job or they're desperate for something, but nobody goes out seeking. Yeah, they do.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

I have clients that was making like five five hundred dollars a night just in tips, and that was not their their uh hourly.

John Moore 39:23

So sometimes they were going home with a grand a day. Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 39:29

I'm not pretty enough for that.

John Moore 39:30

So no, yeah, they were they they made it their career. One this one young man, he came from back east, came out on the west coast, and he's always been in that form of industry, forever serving or bartending or something like that. And it is very lucrative, very, very lucrative. But you're right, it it comes with a certain type of discipline and a certain kind of person. To all of you servers out there, I'm sorry for my ignorance. It's okay. He's don't don't judge him. It's okay.

Ryan Calkins 40:03

It's all right. I mean, I am I am okay admitting if if my perception is off. I guess historically for me, everybody that I've known never went into like I had friends that were servers for years, but they never intended for that to be, they just stayed because the money was well enough to continue doing what they were doing until they found something better and then moved on.

John Moore 40:28

But nope, I tell you, you have people that's their career. That is their career. Um, and it works for them. It works for them. But the thing of it is is that I I I find that when going back to that word promotions, when people are promoted, I just would love it to be. And you guys give us feedback, put it in our comments, like, uh, and subscribe. But I would love to hear your feedback too about how you see this world that we're in and how we see promotions. And our promotion is the way, and I would love to hear from a vast number of you from different uh backgrounds and generational, because there is a true difference between, let's say, 80 to 2000, from 2000 until present. There is a huge difference between how we look at leadership, how leadership is looked upon, the responsibilities of leadership. All of that is totally changed. And it's just dynamic about the change. And it also, I think I would love to hear more. How does it impact the service level and who is it impacting on the service level as well?

Ryan Calkins 41:35

And I will add that that I think any promotion, you will feel less competent before you feel more capable.

John Moore 41:46

Mm-hmm. I agree. And I think that's normal. I really do. I think that's normal. The other way is that you would go in a little arrogant, and I don't think that's always a success. You should come in very humble and wanting to receive, excuse me, wanting to receive, and and you want to just suck up all the all the knowledge you possibly can so you can be your best. But nowadays, going back to your statement of the loyalty, a lot of people, because for whatever reason, they just don't want to be as vested as they used to be.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Yeah, no, that's that's true.

Ryan Calkins 42:14

And but I I think part of my personal working through things were also being comfortable being myself and being more vulnerable and telling people like, I can't do this on my own. I need you. And owning my mistakes, you know, I was never one of those people that threw others under the bus. But I think being able to, as a manager and somebody in a leadership position, owning your mistakes publicly and not shitting on others when they make mistakes is part of it. But also trying to have the difficult conversations early and kind of set expectations sooner rather than later. And uh the other big one for me, as I kind of alluded to earlier, is letting people make mistakes instead of trying to rescue them or even giving them an opportunity to make a mistake.

John Moore 43:04

And and I agree with that. And I also uh can understand why, because I was also a very protective manager as well. I can understand why you will want to protect, but we can protect to their detriment, right? And that's not ever really benefiting them, whether from a knowledge standpoint, from a growth standpoint, from a promotional standpoint, an experience standpoint, whatever it may be, um, I think that's important. And then also, too, we have to get into the understanding that you cannot always be fully in control of those things. You have to allow for nature to take its place. Delegation has to come in play. You can't do it all on your own, like you know, alluded to, telling your staff, hey guys, I need help here. But I remember back in the day, that was not something that we said. You never asked for help.

Ryan Calkins 43:49

Well, you were you were expected to be Captain America.

John Moore 43:53

Now, Captain America, Superman, uh Spider Man, whatever it took to get it done. And again, I think I've said this. Before it does build character, but it also wears you the hell out, too. It does. It wears you the hell out. And again, in some cases, some people are they feed well off of that. They do well off of that. And then some people they don't. And then you know they go into vices and you know, stress vices, and it doesn't end up well.

Ryan Calkins 44:23

No, I mean adding on to or not even adding on. I I I guess for for the listeners, where in your current leadership role do you feel like you're being worn the hell out?

John Moore 44:34

And and how do you how are you managing that, right? Uh and do you find value? I'm working and working hard because do you have a goal in mind? Do you have a vision in mind? Because that's another reason why it worked successfully back in let's say the 80s to the 2000s, is because we work towards something. You got me? Now, what are we really working towards? A lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck. What are we working towards? Yeah, it's a good thing to uh to ponder on as we uh close today. Absolutely. Good conversation, guys. Hope you enjoyed it. So until next week, leading ain't easy. But you don't have to do it alone.

Ryan Calkins 45:16

Thanks for tuning in to Leading Ain't Easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit ReframeRise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's Reframerise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bus Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.