Accountability Without Authority

Ryan Calkins and John Moore both came up through project management, and they've both felt what it's like to be responsible for something you don't fully control. This is an honest conversation about navigating accountability when the authority doesn't come with it, and what actually gets you through it.

Most leadership roles have a version of this problem: you own the outcome, but you don't control all the inputs. Ryan and John came up through project management, where that gap is structural — and in this episode, they talk through what it actually costs you to live in it.

Ryan and John get into:

• Why managing the people on a project is bigger than managing the project itself, and why nobody really explains that until you're already in it
• The difference between external and internal projects, and why internal initiatives are often harder — there's no contract pulling people to the table, and some of them would rather watch it fail than see you succeed
• What happens when leadership publicly endorses your work but won't show up when push comes to shove, and how fast the rest of the team notices when the person at the top doesn't care
• When relationships become your only real leverage and how to build them before you actually need them
• The documentation habits that protect you when things go sideways, and the harder question of when it's right to stop covering for everyone else and let the record speak
• What "figure it out" from a boss actually teaches you, and a story about a boss who made John cry at 20 years old and what he learned from it

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

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Transcript

0:00

Leading Ain't Easy, the show that cuts to the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, John Moore. As we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't, the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy. And you're told that you own something, whether it's a a project or an outcome or a result, but the inputs are scattered across teams and leaders and other priorities. And you end up still being the one that's accountable on paper. But in reality, you're trying to balance and negotiate everything. And at the same time as you're trying to manage everything and managing, trying to manage people, human beings, but you don't have the authority to make anything really happen when they don't participate. So let's talk about the difficulties of that, the challenges of that, and then what are the outcomes? Yeah. So we talked a little bit about before or before we kick the show off that both of us come from kind of a project management background. And it is a very real scenario as a project manager where you are essentially the face and the leader of this project, but you don't necessarily have control over what everybody does, right? And which is the I think the part that no one really describes about project management, which is the largest part about project management, is not only managing the project, but is managing the people that are important to the project, right? And so no one really explains that that part that whole part or process is so huge, uh, is bigger than anything else. And I think that if people said it more and told you more, people probably wouldn't do project management. No, yeah, they wouldn't do it. No, there was there was a a project I was I was responsible for as uh when when I was with the the consulting firm for uh solid waste operations and we were doing an operations review um where ultimately, you know, we make a recommendation to to the city on their solid waste efforts. And it's one of those situations on paper where as a project manager I'm I'm the owner of it, you know, and everything falls on me. But a lot of what determined the project success wasn't necessarily in my direct control. You know, we were at the mercy of data being provided by the city and the haulers. We uh I didn't have direct control of the responsiveness of the staff and the people that were providing me data or trying to coordinate the site visits. I didn't control internal timelines, you know, for my own team who had competing priorities on other projects within the firm that I worked on. But at the end of the day, again, you know, when you go to city council, it's it's my name on the project. And there was a point where I don't know, everything kind of felt like it was slipping and some of the data was being returned late, and people weren't responding to to inquiries and follow-up messages on, hey, you know, we really need to move this along. And the timelines were starting to get tighter and tighter. And I don't know, it was kind of a point where I could either, you know, sit back and then let everything happen and say, well, the project's late, like I don't know what to do, or try to step in and, you know, own what I could, um, even though it technically wasn't mine to own, if that makes sense. Well, it it's funny too, because you know, as I I was in in that last statement about people who probably wouldn't do it if they knew they didn't have the authority. Because even in those scenarios, did you come in knowing that you weren't gonna have the authority to be successful on the back end of that project? I think in any project you go to, there's there's some degree of understanding that you are at the mercy of other people, you know, providing certain things that in order for you to be able to move the project forward. And at least in the in the work that I did, there was always a component where I was receiving data from from two parties. And there were times early in my career where I would sit and wait, and I'd be like, oh, well, you know, I've got data though to wait for. So when there was an update, it's like, oh, well, I haven't I still haven't been provided the this data. And the CEO when I started at that company, who was uh a really great guy, you know, to work for and gave me a ton of counsel, he told me he's like, the the worst thing you can do is sit there and wait for it. Like if you know something's gonna be late, like get ahead of it, you know, report to whoever, to the city. It's like, I'm waiting for this on the hauler, it should be here in two weeks, but provide updates, don't wait for them to come to you because then you're the one sitting there with the egg on your face when the project is late or or whatever it is. At the end of the day, if I'm not getting the stuff that I need from a hauler who's not my direct client, it's my responsibility to the client, not to sit and wait for the hauler, right? So is that with the intent of exploring um actual looking like uh doing the lead component but not having the hierarchy support? This is something that you just come into it, you're gonna figure out, you're gonna be proactive, you're gonna approach things in the best way you can. Or are you really like your boss is saying, don't wait. You know, which which one is the best approach to it? Because especially if you're dealing with something you're not having experience with, right? Don't you want to get some direction versus just going out and doing it your own way? Well, so the the instance that I'm talking about, it's a thing that we are contracted for by the city. Like the city is paying us to conduct this. So there is leverage there in terms of leaning on the client to help push things forward. Because at the end of the day, they brought us in. It's it's our project, sure. But it was a- We already know, we already know what the scope is, everything's agreed upon. So when things are late, it's like you do have an ally to lean on. It's the person that that's paying for the project. But that's funny because that's when it is an external client. But when you think an internal client, right, same kind of premise, internal client, you don't have that luxury. Because an internal client, although they need you, let's say I. Us, on the other hand, when you're dealing with an internal, that that same dynamic isn't there. Um, when you're trying to rally all the troops so that we can win the battle or the war, all the troops don't want to play fair, right? Some of them don't want to take on the accountability, some of them don't want to work with some people. Some of them, I can go on and on and on, right? And you're sitting there as a project manager um trying to manage this thing from a level of lack of understanding because you haven't gotten a full understanding because you were brought in, let's say, at the very end, because that's what they thought you were supposed to be, versus at the beginning, which is always how they do training. Training is all, oh, we'll bring them in last. But if we were at the beginning, we can really have a true concept, really have an understanding of what's happening. So I say all that to say it's it's harder when you're an internal versus an external, you get more of the bad shit, if you will, because they don't have any respect for the fact of timing and knowledge and and all these good things. And then when you're trying to get people to rally and do different things, then you're dealing with that too. So you have two major obstacles: timing and then the staff component, the shake, the stakeholders, and them really wanting to participate in the things in which you're doing. What do you think about that? No, I agree. My my biggest, I think, personal struggles when it came to project management was definitely internal projects. And there were several. I I don't know, it's one of those things where you, you know, you talk about not being able to lead without authority, and there's an idea that if you can't lead without authority, then you're not a leader, right? Like you but I'd I'd argue that there is an element of it where authority is necessary to push certain things forward, right? So I was able to pitch internal projects, and part of it was kind of some some internal change management where we were working on a culture change, right? And they're like, oh yeah, you know, you have the green light, run with it. But as a project manager at the level that I was, I had peers, you know, that I wasn't above, and I had all of the, I hate to say subordinates, but I had, you know, my own subordinates, but then everybody else that was lower level staff at at the firm, that, you know, all of our analysts. And it's one of those situations where you can be a great leader that everybody looks up to and you can move things. But then at the end of the day, when it comes to holding people accountable, it it becomes a challenge to hold accountability when you don't have the authority to actually do anything. And the people that do have the authority that have given you a green light or have publicly spoken about this project, but then aren't there when push comes to shove. And it's like, okay, well, what do you want me to do with this project that I am in charge of that you aren't helping to move forward? Where there's a challenge when peers uh for whatever reason don't want to move it. You know, it's some of some of it is just not wanting to change and they agree with the way things are, some of it is they think that they should be the ones doing it, whatever it is, you know, multiple values and and reasons. But those were definitely my my bigger struggles when it came to lack of of authority. Timing as well. You have a lot of people, oh, we're so busy we don't have time. But it's like uh that part you can never get because they they've known about it coming for so long. And now it's here, and it's like this it's not about timing anymore, it's about a need or want. And you really don't want to do this, and it could be what you're saying, don't want change, don't want to implement something because they're not the ones that's leading it. We have all these different excuses. But then I want to go back to what you were saying too, because it it made me think about when leadership really doesn't support you, and they're like, you got this, you can make it work, you know, I know you're gonna do it. And then when you come back with the problems and issues, there's no real feedback, there's no help, there's no nothing. It's like it's still placed on you to figure it out. Um, I had a manager like that, and although the technique was um not the best, but it did make me, it pushed me because his thought was just figure it out. He, I think I've told you guys this once before, just figure it out. And it was it wasn't about, you know, give you proper instructions so you knew. And so his counter to that was John, if I have to tell you step by step, then what do I have you here for? And I just thought when he said that, I said, that's a cold MFA, right? But then I thought, excuse me, guys, but then I thought about it. I said, you know what? You know, that that's and and then it has value to it. If you're able to figure out things, which I was able to figure out things and I got past my feelings, I was able to get to it. But it sometimes it would be so helpful to know the playing field. That's why I go back to leadership. So you can know the playing field, you can know the folks at the stakeholders, and how do I get through those doors without taking the time to figure them out? It'll be nice to have that playbook, if you will. So you're coming in and things can move faster because you know who you're dealing with. And that was always the complicated problem was, you know, knowing those challenges, not knowing those challenges up front and how easier it could have been to move the projects through smoothly if you just knew I'll give you a Snickers, I'll take you to lunch, I'll, you know, talk nice to you, and we can get these things rocking and rolling, right? But, you know, someone, some people, a lot of people say, well, you know, I had to go through it, so let you go through it, which is, you know, BS in itself. It's like if you have that knowledge, share the wisdom so we can move on past that BS. What do you think about that? Have you had those experiences? I have. I I I think it it from the sounds of it, it may have taken me longer to to adjust. And I don't know. I I think it's one of the those things where you lean on the relationships that you have to help move things forward, but it, I mean, I don't know. It it was still there were certain individuals that that made things more challenging than others. And even when you move things as much as you can without having the the support or I guess the actual resources to move the needle at a certain point, the project it just stalls. And then you're the one that's like, look, I did everything I can, you know, and you try to justify it without sounding like you're and I I like I've never been a person that throws anybody else under the bus. Like I own my own stuff, and even then it's like I did everything I could with what I was given. Like, do you would you like to step in and support? And that's funny you say that because that's what I was gonna ask. Um, what what is that next step when you feel like you've done all you can and then you go on to your boss, and you I guess what is your expectation? Because I want to share mine, but what is your expectation from that boss to really do at that point in time? I mean, my expectation, at least for the things that I've had, and the one in particular that I'm kind of alluding to, is I don't need you to do anything other than be the face of what we're trying to do as the person that, like you're the literal head of this company. Everybody is looking to you. All I need is a public endorsement of what we're trying to do, and say he has control of what we're doing. Like, give me a public blessing. You've provided me the opportunity. So why hinder me and let me try to do what I need to do with a handicap, you know? I agree. And I and I think that's the saying that I want it, but I also I wanted that backstory on the individuals so I could understand how to navigate them. You don't have a lot of time, and you know this too, when you're doing projects, you don't have a lot of time for building relationships because you're actively working, right? You're trying to get you're doing your job and you got you're on other projects as well as you're on this one, right? And so you really don't have the time to really get to know and figure out all of those niceties. It's like, come on, let's just get this thing going. Um, I would have loved to have gotten that kind of scoop. And I would have loved to, and I didn't have too much of a problem with this, I would have loved to have more of the blessing, but in a way in which it wasn't pushback from people. They would have just been like, let's get this done, you know, just get it done. But you know, you have people that just don't care. They don't care to move and they don't care to have urgency to anything. And then you're left with the bag, um, you know, explaining why we haven't completed something or why something has been done. To your point, I've done everything I possibly can. You know, what what else is there? And and it's sad. And then what I hate, and I really do use that word, I really hate is the fact that when that boss goes to those people and saying, hey, what's up? Well, we gave that to John or we did that, and you're sitting there like, Well, good though, you did. You did not. You know, you sitting there saying, No, you didn't. I got all my stuff here, you did not. And so you you gotta go through that. You know, now you're you're going through this whole um proving yourself again that you you have done the right thing, you have asked the right people, but these folks just don't always do that. Forgive me using the harsh language, but that's what you're feeling at those moments. It's like, dang, yeah. Well, it is because it, I mean, in a way, it feels, you know, really unfair. And I have to say that because when you step into a leadership, there is a component of unfairness. Like you just you own it, right? But a lot of times when you get into these situations where you have no authority, but you have the accountability and everything falls on you, it does feel really unfair. And you carry all of the the pressure without the power to do anything. And I don't I don't mean that in the way that like you have to have a hammer to move things forward. But when you have no way to, you know, outside of influence in the space that and capacity that you have, if you don't have the means to make things move, you're at the mercy of what's there. And for most people, like your instinct is to protect yourself. So you have people that get defensive and they throw other people under the bus and all of these things that also has a bad look when you when you're in a leadership position. And the sad part about that too is what then gives you a bad rap because you're trying to, as they have, you also have this grooving component and this um uh ability to show that you can do this job and do it effectively. So you're dealing with that, they have their own issues. So it's like all these different levels of emotional stress, if you will, that you're trying to deal with on top of manage projects, on top of do your own job, because not not a lot of us are full-time project managers. That's a part of our job, too. Like we do, you know, everything we do, plus we, you know, manage projects. So it's just it's really, really hard. And I think you're right. It it is unfair. And that's the bad part. You can't say that. Because this that was a whole part of the taking the job of being in leadership, is you deal with the unfair. That's true. I don't know. And you can't say that. That's real effed up too. It's like, this is unfair. Well, what do you deal with unfair? You're like, I can hear my boss now, so what do you want me to do with unfair? You know, I mean, I don't know. It's just uh as things continue to escalate, and then you find yourself like chasing people for updates and you're trying to over-communicate to to cover your butt and all of these things that you have to do, where it's like you can't just focus on your work because you're trying to ensure that all of these other things are moving. And even if you reach out to me and I'm, you know, working from home or whatever, and I'm like, oh yeah, John, I'm on top of it. I haven't even touched it yet, right? I haven't touched it. So you're like, oh well, he told me he's good. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because you know, you want to you want to appear like you do have everything. And and nine times out of tens, we we do. But when you're dealing with, again, other people, not as an excuse, it's just real. If you have to depend on other people to give you something to make your project successful, those are the situations that I just dislike the word the most because it's just like you never can get what you need when you need it. Now, one of the philosophies, and everybody's talking about, well, these are the bad things, guys. So, what's the good things? Well, some of the good things are is building the relationships with people, right? And trying your best to build relationships hopefully before we start working together in a project. So therefore, when we are working on a project, it won't take, you know, like an act of Congress to get something from you. It won't take us, you know, forever to get us an S a SME to uh help us with doing testing and things like that, UA testing or whatever. We we we find that if you try your best to manage possibly the problems and issues that you would have with your cohort, that kind of works. Uh it's not 100% guaranteed because everybody is not open to that. You know, you have some people that don't want you to have access to things because they feel like you're gonna know what they're doing, which baffles me. Don't we all work for the same company? But they like, oh, we don't we know we don't want him all in our scoop. Don't tell him any more than just that. I've been there, done that, right? It's a false sense of job security. Oh my goodness. And you're sitting there saying, seriously, is it is it that bad that you you gotta do it like that? It it blows my mind. But you have a lot of people that have that whole pretense of holding so tight to things they don't want to release. That's another problem we deal with in project management as well. But I would say one of the good parts, again, uh for our audience is that you do try to build relationships, whether during or after or before a project, because most likely you will be working with them again on a project. Because if they're the leads of those departments, if they're the ones that are always the SME, then you're gonna have to deal with them. So it's just about building those relationships. What do you think about that? Yeah, I think relationships are absolutely key, and you need at least one solid relationship in a project. The somebody that you can lean on when you know things get tough. But I think another key piece is is really getting away from the mindset that you have to wait for authority in order to effectively lead, and knowing, like we mentioned before, that that leading it that you're not always going to have the authority that you need. And that is part of the job, and just being able to reframe it and understand, like you said, uh what you you still have to at the end of the day, you still have to do it, right? Regardless, we still have to do it. Um, but that brings up another point too. How do you how do you really see visually going into a project that you're not gonna have the authority that you need, but you have to accomplish something at the end. You gotta accomplish a goal. Well, every every project has an end goal, right? And and you try to best map it out as much as you can in terms of of timeline and the resources and the people that you have available. And even that changes. Like you, I have never been part of a project where what you put down on paper is exactly how everything plays out. It never happens. Never. People take you know, sick time, they go on vacation, whatever, you know, data disappears. Project changes. Go ahead. Yeah, the scope changes. I mean, whatever it is. So you have to constantly be ready to adapt. You're expecting the unexpected. You roll with the punches and you do the best that you can to provide the the best value project or product that you can. And I don't know, I talked about it, I think it was the last episode where we were talking about how I could get lost in trying to make things perfect. And at the end of the day, there is no perfect because even when you're done, something's going to change. You look back and you're like, oh, well, I I could have done this, I could have done that. There's always something more you could have done, but you don't have the time and the resources and the budget to do it. True. True. Um, you're so, so true on that, especially with those uh parameters or those things that can get in the way. Another thing that came up in my mind was thinking about mergers or acquisitions, too. Like you can be in the midst of a project, and then here comes a merger or acquisition, and now that's put on the back burner, or they're still pushing through while they're. I mean, it's the most difficult of things when you're dealing with that. Now we're bringing in new people, they want to know about things. It's like, oh my goodness. Then we're starting that project all over, and then all the questioning, well, why do we have to do this? Well, we have a system like that. Now you got to introduce their system. It's just like, what? Is the craziness behind that too? But I find that if you have a person who I think what makes a good project manager is not only one who can lead without not without having the authority, but it's one, like your boss said, uh, having the ability to look ahead, right? Be proactive. Uh, like my boss says as well, figure out things before, you know, because you want to be needed and necessary. Uh, and then also relationships uh is what also helps us too. Um, but I also want to put in to the audience, it's not gonna be easy. It's a hard one. You know, it's not always easy to manage when you don't have that authority. It's not easy. It really, really isn't because it really, some people bank on that. I'm gonna make people do things. I'm not, I'm not in no leadership role. I'm gonna make make people do things. And you know what the boss says? Figure it out. And it's a test of your own skill set, is a test of your own professionalism, is a test to see if you have it to make it. And sometimes I believe, just trying to be, you know, balanced with the feedback, is that that's what that leader is trying to do and saying, let's see what you can do, let's see what real leadership you have. Can you make this work? Or are you gonna crash and burn in the midst of it? Yeah, I mean, I've done both. I've I've crashed and burned and learned from it and rose back like a phoenix. Yeah, yes, absolutely. But do you think do you think that that was with the positivity or the structure of seeing your success through your boss's eyes? Or do you just think that was a a mishap? It just happened that way. No, I mean I I think seeing the light after the well the the the crash and burn kind of came. I don't know. I had well, let's just say there there was there was a crash uh a crash and burn moment where it's one of those situations where it just try it like the the the frustration gets you when you when you can't move things forward, right? And I don't want to say you necessarily cave under the pressure, but at some point you're just kind of like, well, I guess I'm gonna accept that this project isn't going to go anywhere and it's it's going to die. And I don't I don't know, being able to, I guess, go through the frustration of that dying project and not being able to revive it and essentially cutting losses or refocusing efforts elsewhere um was a big part of it. And then leaning on that insight to be able to adjust for future projects and change the the way that I went about things and and know that you know there is a time to escalate or push back or fight, and you pick and choose your battles, and some hills aren't worth dying on. And if I can't get John to comply and give me what I need or whatever it is, I either adjust and figure something out with John or go somewhere else for the same information or whatever I can do and see what happens. And and for me, I was thinking about the word you use, uh uh, which is basically not putting someone under the bus. I think it gets to to what you were just describing. I'm gonna say my part. I think it gets to a point where you no longer can't take on the full responsibility on your own and let the ship sink with you. No, there are other people on this ship too, right? And it's time at that point where we feel like it's really, really dying that we need to start naming names. Because the thing of it is, is that look, you know, it's 12 people on this project, it's not just one. And one cannot be the only successful matter on this entire ship. So we gotta start saying, hey guys, you know, hey boss, you know, I I've done this, here's my documents. You gotta start putting it out there that people are not doing their roles. And however they want to rock and roll with it, they gotta rock and roll with it. But I I I found that I would not go down with the ship, especially knowing that I've done all that I possibly could. All that I possibly could. It's time to now start naming names and saying, hey, I need I need you to get Teresa because Teresa, she never answers any of these are all unanswered emails. All of this is about project, none of them are answered. Somebody's got to reach out to her because she's not doing her part of the project, the blah, blah, blah. I mean, you have to because it's like, if you think about it, at the end of the day, folks, it will land on you and you'll be responsible for a project that, yes, you doing your part, but the 11 others out of the 12 aren't doing theirs, and that's not your responsibility. Now, your responsibility is to try to make this sucker work. Yes, you've been doing that. You actually been doing excellent on it. But now you're at points where you no longer can cover them. You can't cover them no more. And I ain't going down with the ship. It ain't gonna be me saying I'm the one that did wrong. It's like, no, all of us did our part, but some of us didn't do the parts that we needed to get done. What are you thinking? You smiling, what you think? Yeah, I was just wondering how how you handled that and how you were able to document and present it. If you oh, I did. Honestly, I did. Because usually when I'm doing project management, I'll use whatever the project management tools are. And as you know, the key indicator of project management is documentation. What you received, what you know, what was needed, timelines, all that kind of good stuff, right? And literally it's there. So it's not like you're making it up. You're showing the number of times of attempts of emails, you know, you put that in there, whatever the framework it is, you're putting that in there, and you're saying you didn't receive any information after a period of time, 24 to 48 hours. You're documenting all those things, and those reports were were your was your Bible approved. And so therefore, I would always tell my boss, if it got to those places, that look, you can see what I'm doing. This is this is all the folks that are following up. Look, all the detail that they're following up, the attachment would be in there, everything would be there that we needed. And then you see all these other folks, no response. And so then when they're, oh, I gave that John, I'll give that John, and you go and look and say, it's not anywhere. It's not. You didn't give us that information. So was your was your boss receptive to to that? He was he was supportive of that part because he won or bosses was supportive of that part because they knew the people. That was the blessing about it all. They knew them, they worked with them before I. So they knew the folks, they knew how they worked. So that was another part. Now, if it was a new boss, now yeah, it probably would be difficult. But I've always found through trial and error that you gotta document your stuff so that therefore you won't be left behind. And if somebody feels like you put them under the bus was not my fault, you didn't do your part. You didn't do your part. And we got documents to prove that you didn't. And I'm and that's like last resort, because I'm I'm one that, you know, we're all grown-ups. Nobody should be tallying on anyone. But look, if you didn't do your part, you didn't do your part. Because believe you me, if you didn't do it or I didn't do it, somebody's telling on us. Nobody's sitting there processing thinking, oh, this is gonna look bad on Ryan Stanton, it's gonna look bad on John. They're like, whatever. John didn't send this in, Ryan didn't send this in. They don't care. And that's kind of a little, you know, a little, you know, negative, but you do, you get to that point where it's like nobody really cares about your outcome, so you need to make sure that you put yourself in a better positioning. That's that's like last, last resort. That's not at the beginning where you come in being cutthroat. The beginning, you you want to see the project succeed. At the beginning, you want to see people do the right thing. At the beginning, you want to see people participate and do all the things we're supposed to do. But when you're six months, almost nine months into a year-long project and we're getting down to the wire of the conclusions we need. Come on, what are we doing here? What are we doing, folks? So, no, I have no problem, no problem at those point in time to say, hey, this is these are the folks that's not following up. These are people not doing their job. And then the the the person with the proper authority to move things were able to step in and help you. They would reach out to their leadership. They did a proper protocol. They didn't reach out to them individually, they went to their leadership and say, hey, we need some help on these things. We're not getting the feedback that we need. They didn't go in depth as to well, John told us, they just said, Hey, we've been looking for these items, we haven't gotten them, and then they would upload the report so they could see we haven't gotten it. And then that leadership would have worked with that person. And then all of a sudden, pop and pop up the whole report has everything on it. There was there was no more uh I sent it to John already. Hell no, it wasn't it. It was like, don't bullshit the bullshitters. Come on, here's your proof. What are we doing, right? So yeah, I agree. It it was but it was a learning experience because it taught you um to not come in all jaded or come in with these rosy eyes of you know, grandeur, thinking everybody's gonna be, you know, on the same team and we're gonna do this thing. No, it taught me a lot doing projects over years. I did projects for 10 years. Yeah. In many different forms of it, like from an acquisition standpoint, from a technology standpoint, to a policy standpoint. And it's just each one is differently done, and it's just like, wow, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. You really see who people really are when you're working on them. It's like, really, John? It's like, really? You see who people really are. Same part, but it's real. Did you well? So I mean, we we talked about before with uh, you know, the consulting experience. So most of my projects were external, the ones that I had internally. It the biggest challenge that I had at the consulting firm where our work was all project-based that was external, all of the priority and emphasis was placed there, which makes sense. So the ones paying the bills, etc., right? But when you're trying to do internal initiatives and projects and you're struggling because people aren't placing the same level of priority on them, even though you still, as an internal manager and leader, you still have internal goals, even though you yourself have your external projects that you're working on, and so does everybody else. And it's just like when you don't have the same level of respect for the internal, I don't know how to explain it, but when you're when you're trying to work on culture in team building, and you say that you're not even having the person in charge as the face to help move it, it's also not seeing when others see that person not putting the emphasis on the internal and they're blowing it off to do other things, and they'll come in, oh, you guys should really do this. But then they go back to not doing it. Everybody sees that and they're like, well, if it doesn't care, why do I care? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's the sad part because uh everyone is always watching, someone's always paying attention and someone's always taking notes, and someone's always looking for an excuse not to do something. And so we have to always be very mindful. We have to be very mindful, especially if we're in leadership or not in leadership uh on a project per se. Um people are watching and they're watching your behaviors and they're watching what's important to you and what's not important to you. Because if it ain't important to you, it's darn sure not going to be important to them. Yeah. Well, even when it's extremely important to you, sometimes it's not important to them. Yeah, because they're not vested like we are, maybe. You know? So it's it's just hard. It's hard to get that buy-in, and it's hard also to figure out what moves them. And I know we're talking about projects, but I'm telling you, guys out there, projects, it's so much more than just managing a project. You're also managing capital, you're managing people. It's just not just a project. It's all it's a full it's an all-encompassing kind of thing. It's just not one thing you're dealing with, you know, with multiple different facets, and it's just hard sometimes. It really can be. It's just the I think it's just the the easiest and quickest way to discuss the topic of accountability without authority. Authority, absolutely. And I agree with you, but it's but it's still it's um it's a hard one. Um it's really a hard one, but it can be done. We've you know successfully seen that it can be done, but you just got to be ready for it. You know, you can't come in with uh an impression that you are going to succeed just by happenstance. You know, it takes you to figure out what is going to be necessary. One, you just said it, and I agree with you, which is how how things are presented is important to the lead or leaders of the project, uh, to the other folks that are supporting the project. You know, again, if you don't care to have your documentation or if you don't have your things done in a timely fashion, then why would they? So we if you're gonna be a form of leadership, you have got to lead by example. Yeah, and I I guess I I want to add that the reason that we were using projects as kind of the way to discuss it is because even if you don't have an official project, if you're trying to move some type of initiative, it still functions as a project. You're still trying to get buy-in and you have to have resources to do it. And you're trying to do all of the things that go into a project in an unofficial capacity. And and another reason why we brought it brought up, you know, using and being using the word project is because it was so sense, it made so much sense to the topic. Because usually that is the role of a project manager, is they are a project manager, but they do not have the authority. Any other role, you have the authority to manage or to have say so, not necessarily when you're doing projects. Yeah. No, you mentioned document and everything. It's reminded me of this guy that uh when I was at Waste Management, he worked at a different site, but he had a notebook that he was always taking notes. Every conversation he had with anybody was in that. Like, and he would have a drawer that had like 20 notebooks of like years worth of note-taking. And it was amazing to see because I don't have that level of dedication to it. But there was a uh uh, I don't remember exactly what happened. I don't, I don't think it was a termination thing, but he was being thrown under the bus for something, and he had every conversation he had. Like he went back to that specific thing, showed it, and HR was like, Oh, do you have this for oh he's like, Oh, I have everything, I have it all. And every, I mean it was all handwritten notes, but he had everything. I'm like, God, I gotta do that. And of course I didn't, but but see, I love, I love that you bring that up. It's because he got burnt once before. He did. And he said, never again. And that's why he took that initiative because somebody lied, someone burnt, somebody did something to him. Same happened to me. Because once you'll get burnt, you say never again. I'm not gonna be put in a situation where I cannot defend myself. And our memory is not always a defender. So therefore, you have to write it down. And if you're writing down dates, times, the conversation back and forth. Now, yes, you have to be a steward of your notes, or what I started to do, uh record. I'll let people know I'm recording because I'm taking notes. So I don't want to take my my statement was I'm recording so I can focus with you and not be taking notes. And then I would have all of my all of my notes dictated, they will all be done because you just never could trust that people would say the same thing they said to you. And it's just so sad. Yeah, but I was burnt, so I totally get him. I totally get him. Yeah, no, it was uh he was a really great guy. Like he told me all about it, Fatu. Well, I probably shouldn't say his name, but yeah, but yeah, well, I said it. But anyway, anybody that knows him, great guy. If you don't know him, you should. I mean, because that's that I think, I think that's the learning experience about having had an experience in life. If you take nothing from that experience, whether it's a termination, whether it's a disciplinary action, whether it's getting in trouble, whatever you want to call it, and you take nothing from it, you just, you know, you go on living life like nothing ever happened. Well, shame on you. You did that experience of disservice. Because what we are to do is to learn from that in such a way that we say, how do we not deal with that again? How do we not have that feeling of whatever that was? I remember I had a boss, I think I'm not sure if I shared this with you. I was younger, so don't judge me. Um, I had moved to Atlanta and I was working for this manufactured home company. And um I wasn't getting it because they didn't train properly. And I I can truly say that now, being in training for over 20-something years, it did not train the employees properly. And so I wasn't getting it. I wasn't getting the calculations correctly. It was always me in these calculations. And I remember the big boss took me into his office and talked to me so rudely that I had started to cry. And I've never done that before. I've only done it twice in my life. One when I had to leave a company, and then this guy. And I remember him doing that to me. And I remember thinking, I never want to experience that. I never want someone to have this power over me that I get emotional with them. I think I was probably 20, 21, something like that. So I'll never do that again. I'll never let them have the power. And he told me, go wash your face and get out of here. That's what that's that was the leaving. I'll never forget it was Caucasian man, of course. And I never ever had allowed anyone to have that much power over me. Never. Never. And I learned from that experience that do your job, even if they're not training you, you figure it out. That's why when the next boss said it, it registered. Figure it out. Don't let someone, you know, make you feel like how I felt that time. Because it was just like nobody was hearing that the woman that was training us did not, she she was one of those people which I now can define, is a subject matter expert. They know how to put the peg in the hole, but they don't know how to train you. She was excellent about what she knew. She got elevated because she knew what she was doing, but she couldn't train nobody else. She couldn't, nobody else could get it. You was sitting there like, well, what is she doing? She's calculating stuff. And you're sitting there, like, it's just oh most people. Yeah. She was a such a manic expert. She could put the peg in a hole every day, all day long. But when it came to say, well, why do you put the peg in a hole? Couldn't tell you. Well, what does the peg do after you leave here? Couldn't tell you. Well, what happens with the peg before you? Couldn't tell you. All she could tell you is when the peg comes to her, this is what you do, this is how you do it, and that's all. For some people, that's all you need. Yeah. But some people for a lot of people, it ain't, it's not the true value, to be honest with you. No, I mean, but sometimes you you need those employees. Like, I was always the person where it's like, oh, well, where does it go? Why? Why do we do that? It's like, just worry about your own job. And I'm like, well, but I want to know how, why my job matters, you know? And I'm with you, my brother. I am with you, and that's me too. I want to know the before. I want to know the afters, because you need to have all that conceptual information. And those that just want to know that one piece, well, they don't usually go that much. They don't go further in their lives. They really don't. Yeah, I feel like a lot of times people that want to know more and learn are are underappreciated. They are underappreciated. And and also they are isolated as well because they believe people start believing uh in a negative about it. And actually, it's just in cured it's this incuativeness of wanting to know what is before, what is after. So you can have. Have the full length of your job, not just I put the pig in a hole. There is a before, there is an after. Well, plus, when you're when you're somebody that that wants to help improve things, it is, I don't know. I feel like it's a waste of time for somebody to come in and make recommendations on something that they know nothing about. It's like, oh, I read it in a book, we should do this. And then you know, you got somebody that's been there 20 years, oh yeah, we tried that, it failed. You're always gonna have that person there that we tried it or failed thing. But without the the context of how everything fits and has worked and the historicals and all of it that goes into it. I and I hate the people that are like, well, the past doesn't matter. All we have to worry about is the future. I'm like, well, the past does kind of matter. Like because that's what we learn from. Right. Yeah, that's what we learn from. But again, to your point about people being uh the ones echoing, oh, we tried it, we tried it before. A lot of the times it goes back to a previous statement. People don't want to do something new. And especially if you are a new person that's coming in with great ideas, they're like, well, we don't want his ideas. Why didn't we come up with those ideas? And you have all of that kind of foolishness going on. It's just so sad. It really, really is. Uh, that's why I think that a lot of companies can be limited because people limit themselves within the company. Um, they really can limit themselves. Owners can limit themselves because they like that one way of doing things, and then sometimes you have people come behind them and they just keep the limitations going. There now is a cultural thing. It's sad, but it's real. But there's something about closing on this, there's something about uh leading without having authority. It is a challenge, but it is something that can be overcame. Overcome. Yeah. No, I agree. And I I think it's like like we mentioned before, it's really a a a mindset thing and knowing that you you can't just sit around and and let things happen to you. You gotta adapt and figure out a a way to move ahead. I agree 100%. Because if not, you are gonna be in a bad situation. Yeah. So uh for our listeners, I just want to know where are you currently accountable without authority and do you feel yourself stepping into influence or are you waiting for permission to act? And if you're waiting for permission to act, you have to figure out what are those permission structures, right? And are they something in which you can do or is it something outside of your realm? Yeah. And until next week, leading ain't easy. Because you don't have to do it alone. Thanks for tuning in to Leading Ain't Easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit ReframeRise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's ReframeRise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bus Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.