When Being the Go-To Person Becomes the Problem

Every team has the person everyone depends on, and sometimes that person is the leader. Ryan Calkins and John Moore discuss what happens when that dependency stops being a strength and starts becoming a trap, for both the leader and the team that has stopped growing because of it.

There's a version of being a good leader that looks like being available, reliable, and always there with an answer. Ryan and John have both been that person. This episode is an honest conversation about why it feels good at first, why it eventually breaks, and what it actually takes to stop being the bottleneck you didn't know you'd become.

They get into:

• Why the "hero" feeling is real, and why it eventually flips into overwhelm without much warning
• The difference between a team that's supported and a team that's dependent, and how leaders accidentally create the latter
• What it means to hire for the future and not just for now, and how bad hiring decisions show up later as a delegation problem
• The coaching shift: moving away from quick fixes and toward questions that build the other person's thinking, not just your own efficiency
• What actually happens when you let people fail: the internal fear, the temporary dip, and why the long game justifies it
• The real cost when a leader can't let go: team members who stop growing, start looking for the door, and never tell you why

Ryan and John aren't presenting a framework here. They're talking through what they've actually lived; the validation, the overwhelm, the insecurity, and the moments that finally changed the way they led.

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

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Transcript

Ryan Calkins 0:00

Leading ain't easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, John Moore. As we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't, the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy.

John Moore 1:02

Yes. And then also making sure that you build a team that is not reliant on you, but they are dependent upon themselves. And what is the training like and what are we doing to make sure that happens?

Ryan Calkins 1:15

Right. And every organization and company has this type of person, the one that everybody calls when, you know, information is needed or something goes wrong, the person that can jump in and solve the problem. Um, and a lot of times, you know, this person is rewarded. They're the ones that earn the promotions, they grow. But at a certain point, every decision starts to become dependent on them and reliant on them. And every problem that becomes a fire escalates and goes to them. And, you know, things just turn into quick check-ins, like, oh, let me run it by this person, let me run it by this person. And eventually that person becomes the bottleneck for everything that occurs.

John Moore 2:00

I think it I think initially it starts out to be something that someone enjoys being that point person that everyone relies on. And then it becomes, because it can become a problem, which is the bottleneck that we just spoke about. And I think that first it's a good thing because everyone is gone to the sky, this guy or this young lady, this person, everyone had that person has that information, that insight, because they've been here longer, they were here at the beginning of the project, whatever it may be. But then it seems that it turns into a problem. Problem for the business and problem for that individual, right? Um, vacations are not vacations anymore. Vacations are now constantly checking in. You're not really on vacation, you're literally on calls. Um, time that you need to yourself is no longer because you're making sure that everything rolls properly. So then it should start making you question did I really want it to be this way, or did I really not train my staff enough to be independent upon themselves? And did I do that purposely? I don't know.

Ryan Calkins 3:00

I can speak from from personal experience that I don't know. I mean, it feels good to, you know, be the hero. And when people need something, it's like, yeah, I'll be there, you know, I'll help this person, I'll help this person. And then I think uh it it's early when, or it's easier when when you have a small staff or something, but the higher you go, the more people start to check in and the more things become dependent on you. And then it's like, dude, just make the decision. Like, I don't have time for this right now. And you don't realize that all of that time and oh, it's quicker for me to do it, or whatever the scenario is when you're not developing your staff and you become accustomed to being the person to come in and take care of it. It's so much harder to try and take that step back and say, all right, I need you to do this. Like I don't have time to do this because you put yourself in that position of being dependent.

John Moore 3:57

And it's funny you said that because I saw I heard your change from, oh, I like it, I'm the hero to now it's overwhelming. Somebody take it from me. And that is very, very typical of each and every time this happens, is that we are excited about the fact that we are the point person. Everybody says, Hey, go check on Ryan, go check on with that with John. They know, they know. And then when it becomes a task, it's like, I don't have time for this. So I think that we have to identify leadership. What is our true purpose? It's our true purpose to come in to be the hero, or is it to be the leader, right? And in being the leader, that comes with the responsibility with the independence and the training up and then making sure that your staff can run with you or without you. And that takes a lot from you to be able to say, I want a staff like that. Now, me personally, I've always tried my best to make sure that my staff was independent, that they knew what they needed to do, they knew the resources, they knew all of those things because one, when you're in training, you are traveling, you are in a classroom, you can't always just, you know, reach out, reach out, reach out. You have to be resourceful, right? You can't not always just run to a Ryan or run to a John. You you gotta do it, right? And so for me, it was very important from being a trainer first that a person knew their resources, they knew how to do something, they knew where to ebb and flow. And then the big, big stuff would come up to leadership, right? Big, big decisions. But majority, you ran your class, you do what you got to do. And so, with that kind of adage, I that's been my motivation. You know, make sure that they're independent, make sure they know how to do their thing. What do you think of? What are your thoughts about that? No, I agree.

Ryan Calkins 5:40

I on the other end of things, I had some struggles early in my career as a young manager and and young leader because there's that sense of I don't know, you can be more relaxed with stuff. And I don't mean like the anal retentive person that always has to be in control of everything, but you don't, I guess, uh, appreciate the situation you're in because there's always somebody there that will come to rescue you, right? So when you are working for that type of manager that always has their nose and everything or they have to approve everything, it's like, oh, well, you know, I don't need to think for myself because John will take care of it. So, or if shit hits the fan, John will come rescue me or everything else. And it doesn't really teach that leader or manager to be independent and in control. And I know we talked about this in in other episodes, but when you promote too quickly without that experience and that training, once that safeguard, the training wheels come off and you haven't been adequately prepared for it, it's like, okay, well, now I'm this person and I don't have a safeguard. I don't have a safety net. Nobody's coming to help me.

John Moore 6:56

And and also, too, it makes you think of where does this show up the most? It shows up the most when uh you can do it faster, like you said. But if you could have done it faster and you do it yourself, that's one thing. But if you also had trained up the staff and made them, you know, more independent, would that have also been beneficial? Right. Um, then the other one I'm thinking too is the leader who complains that nobody else is, you know, ready, no one else is set up, no one else has the knowledge. Well, that's because we didn't give them the knowledge, right? We didn't, we didn't, we didn't seek that in our individual employees. And I think sometimes we miss out on that a lot. And I think that we could do better as leaders in that faith, in that, in that, that, that place. But I also think we have a lot to do with it because it makes you feel good. And this is make you feel good scenario on one side, but then it's overwhelming on the other side. And I don't think there's ever a real balance. I don't think there's ever a real balance.

Ryan Calkins 7:53

No, it I mean, it does make you feel good. And like I I mentioned, you know, it made me feel good to feel like the hero. And it was validating that that I was needed, but I I didn't appreciate it until much later. But being able to adequately train people feels just as good because they can step in and and help and assist and carry the thing in your absence. And for me, like once I got into that position where I was finally able to break out of that cycle of being the one that needed to feel validated, it was much more validating seeing, I guess, the the fruits of my labor and the efforts put into helping develop other people because seeing them grow and promote, and even if they leave the company and have greater success, it's like, hey, I contributed to really help this person. So I think just being able to kind of reframe what that validation looks like and where it's coming from is still important because everybody wants to feel good in what they're doing. But I think it's misplaced when you have to be the one in control of everything versus being in a position where you're helping others and you're relinquishing that control for the greater good, but you're still productive and you can still feel good about your accomplishments, I guess, sort of vicariously through others.

John Moore 9:17

And and kind of being the devil's advocate, but can it also make that dangerous a little bit, right? Um, that that, you know, that validation is needed from that individual. And this is just, you know, not just speaking to you, just saying in general, but can that be dangerous? Because when does a person actually get it? When does a person, when does that leader get it that, okay, yes, this was good for then? I guess they get it when they break. I guess they get it when they find themselves extremely stressed out. Well, I mean, because there's a point that that becomes dangerous, right? And dangerous might be a harsh word, but it becomes um unproductive. It becomes more of a control when it is in that format. And that's, I think, the danger is because it is a person who is trying to control a situation versus being um a person of knowledge, a person of helping up the team. It's more of self-gratification than it is about the individual. Not speaking to you, just speaking in general.

Ryan Calkins 10:12

Well, no, I it it is dangerous because everything comes through you. And I alluded to it earlier, but it says that sense of of overwhelm where it's like, I just need you to make a decision. I don't have to be the one to do everything, even though I put myself in that position of doing everything. So it absolutely becomes dangerous when it continues to, like I said, the the more that you practice that behavior and everybody else becomes accustomed to it, then they start to operate on dependency. And it's like, okay, well, I can't make a decision without Ryan's input because he signs off on everything. And I think being able to get ahead of that sooner rather than later is beneficial for any young leader or current leader. I mean, just being able to try and get ahead of it before shit hits the fan, and then you have to back up and try to course correct when things are already too late and you're overwhelmed.

John Moore 11:17

And you just you just alluded to some of the internal, excuse me, some of the external components of it, you know, answering every question, reviewing every decision, solving every escalation. But let's also think about some of the internals, what it's doing to that individual person, thinking about the fears of failing, right? Uh, the lack of quality. Quality is going to start dropping, um, the the losing of the values or and or the value of what that person is doing. And I think that's another part of the struggle, right? Because this is their fears that they're fearing internally. If I'm not in control, this is what's going to happen. And I think that a young leader like you alluded to, hopefully is trained up well, will understand they will have those moments. But you also have to have a team that's reliant upon their own selves as well as they're reliant upon you until it needs, it needs not to be. Uh, and that has to be promoted more than more than anything else. Even if you have your own fears, it still needs to be promoted because that's what good leadership does.

Ryan Calkins 12:16

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think I still to this day work with a lot of people that struggle with that concept. Like it's about right now, and I can't have any down performance, anything else. And I think what changed for me was being able to shift to say, okay, well, I'm okay with a temporary dip in productivity or performance while I train people, knowing the long game is what really matters. And if I can get people up to speed, I'll take a temporary dip to have a bigger and brighter future and growth and everything else, where I still, people, you know, at my level and everything else are very much this project matters right now in the moment. I'll do it myself. And they they never break the cycle on being so involved in every decision that just can't let go and they can't look at the bigger picture on what things could be versus where things are in the moment.

John Moore 13:13

And and that brings me to think about this statement. Is it that they don't see the bigger picture, or is it more of a lack of belief in the individuals themselves that they could do the job like now? Here's two parts. Can they do the job like you would do it, or you know, in the belief that they could do the job, period? Well, now that goes into a whole nother directive. What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 13:37

Well, that kind of brings us back to the command and uh not command and conquer, uh command and control episode that we had before, where people can't relinquish and they want everything to be done in their particular way, which in itself is a bad thing, you know. I mean, you want to try and teach and bestow best practices, right? But you still have to give people freedom and individualism in the work itself, knowing that you both have the same end goal in mind. And that's not to say that everything is outside of a particular process, because some things very much have to run within a process and a structure. But as much freedom as you can provide within that scope to allow people to accomplish things in their own way to get to the same end goal is the mark of a more mature leader, as far as I'm concerned.

John Moore 14:29

And I agree, but also too, or in addition to that, I go back and thinking of the intent of hiring a person, right? Um, what I'm looking for in the person, right? What am what am I gonna be to mold in this person? What does this person come with? So so my mind is thinking, so if I want to leverage things, will this person be able to do those things? So that means that I'm gonna hire people that I have a belief that they can do the job that I will want them to do, right? It goes back to that basic notion of the whole hiring component. Like if I'm gonna hire a person, I'm gonna hire a person I know they can do the job, right? And I'm gonna hire a person that I feel comfortable, um, their knowledge, their skills can meet, you know, meet those times. And so if I'm not hiring correctly, this is where it goes back to that too. If I'm not hiring the right person that can do a job, well, it goes into my faith in them, my belief in them, uh, which also relinquishes that responsibility that I'm holding so tight to or want to have my fingers still in it. Um, and and it really speaks to that. Are you hiring right? Are you hiring with this, the, the mind of future, right? What do you think? What do you got?

Ryan Calkins 15:36

Well, I don't know. I mean, hiring, it's it's tricky for me because I view hiring like like dating, right? Everybody is putting their best foot forward. So you are going to get the best version of that person in the hiring process, and you don't really know what you have until the work starts. And I feel more often than not, people overinflate their capabilities, they get in the door. For me, it's a matter of can this person make mistakes, learn from it, make new mistakes, and not continue to make the same mistakes over and over. Because if it's a capacity thing, then it's like, all right, well, you really maybe this isn't the right job for you. We need to find something else or ultimate, you know, removal. But typically it's like, I'm fine with with mistakes. People, that's how people learn, and then they and they grow, right? Just don't make the same mistakes over and over. Make new mistakes.

John Moore 16:30

And and it's funny, this topic is very close to me because I had two clients this week that we talked about leadership. And the first one that came up was he was um he's recruited a young lady. She's doing quite awesome, and she's completing every task and she's coming back for more. Okay, what else you have for me? What else do you have for me? And so what my client has been doing is holding back on the list because he was like, Well, I don't want to overwhelm her and one, you know, component of it, but at the same time, I want to see what she does. Well, once you saw what she's what she's been able to accomplish and she's wanting more, and that's been successful, go ahead and give her the list. Because if you don't give her the list now and you wait 120 days or six months later, you're gonna see the foul-ups to your point, see the errors, see the different things. I rather you see them sooner than later. Give her the list, let her weed through the list, find out where her weak points are, where you can strategize, you can train, you can up, up, up train and all those wonderful things versus waiting so long into the game. So, you know, similar to what you're saying, similar to what you're saying as well. Um, I just find it that I want to know it sooner than later, right? Because a lot of people, like maybe in what you're saying, they wait so long and it's like, I want to know what you can do. Because you're right, we do give our best for effort, but then also too, you got to show up with what you're saying you can do. And if you can't show up, then what's the point?

Ryan Calkins 17:56

True. And and that's talking from a uh technical piece of a role, right? So, I mean, when somebody's hired, you want them to perform the job that they have. And as they they grow, leadership rewards problem solving, right? So the more you accomplish, the, the more you move up. And you don't always see that person's leadership capability until they move up. And then you realize, oh, well, this person isn't necessarily the best at team building or skill building or, you know, uh camaraderie and building confidence in others. And then it becomes a different sort of problem to where now this person is in a leadership position where their best effort and and place may very well have been in the role that they were doing before.

John Moore 18:47

And that's again funny that you bring that up because that's happened multiple times with clients where they have given someone the responsibility of, let's say, being an analyst, but then when that analyst has to break down what they break down and speak to a large group, they don't know how to explain it. But if they they can get in and work those numbers, it's like the the person who is a subject matter expert. They know how to put the peg in a hole, but explaining that process cannot do. And so it speaks to that what you just spoke to, which is yeah, everybody is not built in a way of saying, well, dang, I really think you should be, you know, the the supervisor of this. And they're like, okay, I can do that. Then when you put them in that role, you see that their capabilities is really what they're sweet in. But then when they get into lead leadership and the socialization and then presentations and all these other things, where that's not their, that's not their bellywick. That's not what they're good in. Um, and it does go back again in hiring. It goes back in asking the hard questions, asking the questions that promotes future, future skills, future dynamics, you know, what they're comfortable with, and not judging them because if they're not comfortable with leadership, they're not comfortable in leadership. But if they're excellent in analyzing, they could do that all day long and and ace it, which will be great because we need that. But if I see that this role is going to be something that in the future is going to turn to leadership, you have to make that decision, that this, excuse me, that determination as well.

Ryan Calkins 20:10

Yeah, no, that's true. And then for leaders that are in those roles now or, you know, soon to be, how do you avoid becoming the bottleneck that you've been historically dependent on being that go-to person and the person that saves everything? It's like, how do you ratchet back and say, okay, well, there are times when leaders do need to step in, but what are those times?

John Moore 20:35

I think those times are going back to your point, when those times find to be overwhelming where you're not able to be successful at everything you're doing because you're doing multiple things and think outside your uh your your cue, your your lane, um, because you enjoyed that. I think that's when it starts to change. Um, but I think that's the, forgive me, I think that's a negative change. I think that that's when you it's made to change versus you voluntarily give it up, right? Because you're not able to manage it all. You you it be you know, it's it's becoming where things are falling to the wayside. You're not able to complete, you're not able to get everything done. So I think that leaders that we're talking to, if you feel yourself with the stress and you feel the overwhelming responses, or you're feeling that it's no longer joyful to have that responsibility, well, that's a sign because that's time for you to start relinquishing. It's time for you to start delegating, it's time for you to start to identify, I can't do it all. And listen, folks, it's not a problem. I mean, that's just a reality. We cannot do it all. That is the purpose of having staff to balance the load. And everybody gets, you know, celebrated. You know, you get celebrated because your team is doing good, you celebrate your team as individuals. It it's it's a full on everybody celebrated instead of one. And I think being a leader should never be about just you, it should be about everybody.

Ryan Calkins 22:00

Yeah. No, I was just thinking about the so I have a soon-to-be five-year-old, and the advice is to ignore a lot of behavior and you know step in when it's safety or when it's this and it's that. I'm like, but how's he gonna know if I don't, you know, intervene? And and just trying to relate that to work. It's like, okay, I don't have to necessarily comment or intervene on everything. But in the workplace, when there is a crisis or somebody genuinely needs help or the issue just isn't moving, that's when I can step in and I don't have to be the person that decides everything. And I'm giving people the opportunity to fail and learn and grow and provide input as needed. But being able to actively say, I'm going to make an effort to not review everything that this person does or be the deciding factor and let them fail and be okay with it and let them know that it is okay if they fail.

John Moore 23:14

And I'm going to say this isn't necessarily failing when someone is not doing it the way you, me, will want them to do. I just had this this week. A lot of the times leadership will say, You're not doing it right. Why am I not doing it right? Because you're not doing it the way that I want you to do it. What the way you want to do it may not be the only way to do it. There could be other ways we can still get to that. And I want to get back to your other statement too, but you made me think about that. There could be multiple ways to get to it and we still get to the end goal, period. Right. So why not allow your staff to, like I said to my client, hey, why don't you formulate it as a project? Let them handle it, see what they come up with. If you like it, great. If it if it gets to the same bottom line, perfect. Uh, if if you still find that you want to add to it, well, add to it. But still, if they come to the same conclusion, that's the only part that matters, as long as they come to the same resolve that you want, period, which is really what the company should want, not what you want. Let me reframe that. It's not what you want, but what the company needs and what the company may want, right? Take yourself out of it. But a lot of the times, to your statement of fail, it could be, oh, it's not the way I want it to be. And that's something we have to, as leaders, we have to make sure that we um remove ourselves from that. Is it is it the spreadsheet formula that we wanted it to be like? Because we, you know, made all those, you know, edits and made the formulas the best so that the data came the way we wanted it. Now here's someone else is more savvy in formulas. They just said, boom, boom, boom, here is the same, same data. A shorter amount of time, less, you know, steps, boom, boom, boom. And then it's like, oh, okay, you got it. I don't care how you got it. Thank you. Boom. And that should be acceptance. What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 25:02

No, I I think that's true. And I also, you mentioned earlier where uh you put yourself in a position where you're on vacation and you continue to be bothered. And I just wanted to add to that that the uh goal isn't for the team to need you more. The goal should be for them to be able to operate in your absence, right? So you can take a vacation and be separate and you know and trust that your team can carry the torch without you.

John Moore 25:31

Absolutely. And I hate to keep going back and forth, but if you can't without it, the person has to, the person has to want and understand that that is a necessity. That's a necessity. That the staff needs to be independent of themselves, so that therefore there are things in which they do and there are things in which you do. There are things in which you're responsible for at the end of the day, and there's things that the staff is responsible for. And that should be something that we do at the beginning if we're going in with that healthy mind, right? Uh, and that healthy approach to leadership. Again, all of us, there's not one person that does not come in with a self-gratifying, uh, self-uh, whatever we want to call it, that's a part of leadership. That weans quite quickly if you're a healthy individual. It really does, because you have to get down to the nitty-bit, nitty-gritty that it's not about you, right? It's about the team, it's about the business, it's about the company, right? And I think that that first acknowledging the fact that yes, we all have that syndrome, if you want to call it that, at the beginning, but the realness comes in and it's like, hey, I can't do this on my own. So I think that that's something, again, I say from the interviewing, from the training, from uh the disciplines you teach, from the models you create, that should then allow for persons to be like that. So you should be able to go on vacation, you should be to go to conference and not be interrupted every five minutes. You should be able to leave and the whole thing then blow up because you were gone. And again, it talks about who did you hire, what did you invest in them, who are the people in which you brought in?

Ryan Calkins 27:05

Yeah, no, I the I think the one thing that allowed the biggest shift in in leadership approach for me was when I was at waste management, there was an entire company-wide shift from a managerial kind of top-down focus to more coaching, which is still more or less top-down in a corporate environment. But it was a more shifting towards open-ended questions and trying to get the person to think about what they're doing and bring out their expertise, because a lot of times they know stuff that you don't, but they just come to you for a quick fix on things. And I think it was just one element in the bigger picture that when you are constantly fixing and fixing and not coaching to help others solve their own problems, it's just another piece of the pie in terms of not relinquishing your uh, you know, capacity as a leader. And I don't mean like uh, you know, questions to where I'm just asking questions for the sake of asking questions, and then it becomes like that weird condescending kind of thing, but more pushing people to think beyond just a quick fix, you know, like when uh there is something that they come with, instead of just fixing it, you ask a question and you're really trying to get the person to think critically uh uh about something. And there's a point where you ask so many questions and then you're going in circles, and you're like, okay, well, obviously this isn't gonna go anywhere, so we need to do more. But more often than not, it's like the person has the information in them. And it's just a matter of, oh, okay, well, that sounds great. Well, let's try it. And they're like, oh, well, what do you mean let's try it? You're you're gonna let me try that. And you're like, yeah, go do it. Let's see what happens, you know, and then you give people more freedom. And as they accomplish things, they become more confident in their own capabilities to do things. And it just allows more freedom and growth opportunity to let people take their ideas and run with them. And there are times where you don't have that luxury to give it, or you have expert advice in things that you have already tried that didn't work, and you can share some of that, but more often than not, give somebody a chance to run with it, see what happens, and it continues to build.

John Moore 29:40

You know, I as you were talking a little bit before, I was thinking about, and it still goes into lineup of what a mature leader looks like. Um I thought about the, and forgive me, but I thought about the security of a leader and the insecurity of a leader to this point, right? Even the state of giving them the coaching, I find that some leaders can be in a state where they feel like if I give them so much information, they'll then take my job. And that's something else, is something that's deep, right? And that you have a lot of people who don't want to give up all of the, you know, the responsibility and all of the knowledge and so forth because they feel like if I tell them too much, they'll know too much, they'll take my job. Um, which can be a reality in some cases, but that's not something that we should as leaders um let that be our framework. I think that to your point, uh, when we come to those quick fixes, we should say, okay, this is a scenario that I want to coach you on. I want to be able to, you know, see what your thought process is, see how you're thinking, not do that constant, and and I've been there before. Someone is, and now what we do then? And what we can do then is like, well, damn, you know, we'll just get to the thing, right? But sometimes the questions are good because they do validate you that you are thinking and you are putting out forefhought, but it gets to a point where questions should then go into a conversation, right? Not just question, question, question. I've seen that, I've been there, it's not a cool thing. And then it goes into the approval, like you alluded to, which is saying, yeah, you know what, that's a good idea. Go ahead and try it. And that's the trusting in that employee that he or she can rock and roll, that they can actually do it, right? Um, but again, it goes into that belief structure and it goes into also um you feeling confident in yourself that you could relinquish that. And I think that that takes time. That's not right at the first 30 days, right? That's not in the six-month time frame. That's almost a year where you really have gotten to know this employee. You really watched how they've ebbed and how they flowed, how they've done different things. Yes, you put them on projects and stuff like that, but I think it's about a year because you really want to know in front of my face, behind my back, you're gonna do what I would expect a leader to do. What are your thoughts about that?

Ryan Calkins 31:56

I think we when you go from being a leader that needs that input and validation and that sort of hero complex that I talked about, that when your team finally does something and execute it and doesn't even think to call you, it's it's a weird feeling. Like that the first time that that it happens, it's like I'm not needed anymore. Like, what you know, what did I do? Yeah, it's like at the same time, it's extremely rewarding. And I don't know, like I not to get too personal, but you know, back in I don't even, I don't want to say the early days of Facebook, I don't even know when it was, but there was a point where I would post and I would check it like minutes after, I'm like, oh, well, he's liked it yet. Shit, maybe I should delete it and do something else. And I found myself like getting sucked into the social media trap of needing validation and watching my post where I was like sinking time and effort and things into stuff that didn't really matter. And I mean, at this point, I haven't really been on there in at least like five or six years because it's like, what am I doing? Like, it doesn't matter. Who cares what I think? You know, and it's a little bit in left field, but it's also kind of related to the point to where the validation is service level and doesn't really matter in the greater scope of things. And being able to develop your team and bring people along is far more valuable and validating than any personal attachment that I could have in a manner of control.

John Moore 33:39

No, I agree 100%. And and I think it's great that you bring that up because it thinks of, you know, the parents that send their kids off to college and the kids are not calling anymore. You know, the kids are not needing them anymore. The parents are all they're always celebrating, you know, oh, he's gone. And then then when it settles in, it's like, oh, but he hasn't even called to check in. Oh, but he, it's been a week. And it's like that, that sense. But then to your point, it is gratifying because you've raised and invested and instilled good values in your child, hopefully, that they're able to navigate, right? Well, that's the same concept, not saying that our staff are our children, um, but that's the same kind of things we want to put into our children. I mean, our staff, right? Is we want to put good grounding, good training, good leadership, all those wonderful things so that when they when we when we do break that time, that we do feel like, wow, I haven't heard from them. They haven't had any questions. You know, usually every, you know, every Tuesday, you know, Friday we have a 230 meeting. Now we don't have it anymore because there's no more of a need. That is gratifying. That means that they finally got it. It clicked. They wrote down the notes. They not only wrote down the notes, they read the notes. They not only read the notes, but they turned their notes into a workflow, a procedure, a step-by-step, right? That's what we want. That's what you totally want. And it is, it's different to you know, get to that point because now you're like, Whoa, that's where sometimes our insecurities come into play. And then that's sometimes where we put our hands in because now we feel like we're not a part of things. Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 35:12

No, the uh not talking to your parents thing. Like I was in school and you know, my mom would call, and I'm like, oh, you know, I'll call her tomorrow. And I didn't respond to some texts, and it was like a week and a half had gone by. And it's not even like I talk to my mom every single day, right? But there's like pounding at my apartment door, and I'm ignoring it. And it's like pounding and pounding, and eventually it's like, this is a police, so I just ignore it thinking they'll go away. Nope. They opened the door, they cut the chain, came in to inspect to make sure that I was fine because my mother called the cops, concerned that something had happened to me. And I'm like, dude, I'm like 25, 26 years old. What I didn't want to talk to you. It was, I love my mom, but you know, that was I was like, dude, and I called her and it just wasn't clicking that the cops just basically kicked my door in to make like, how do you not understand? Well, how do you not understand?

John Moore 36:17

You call for your mom, let her know I'm still alive. She went to the wellness check. I love it, absolutely love it. Oh, well, I didn't love it. Because I'm telling you, you know, unfortunately in the world we live in, there are things that do happen. And and your mom was probably thinking this is the first time he's gone away, all these, you know, things that she's thinking, and and she's worried about you. You're sitting here like, whatever, whatever. She said, I'll fix you.

Ryan Calkins 36:42

Well, that's what I'm saying. It wasn't even like we talked every day, and then I went AWOL or something. Like I left home at 17. I had four years in the military, got out, I had college. I would I had been gone for like eight years or something at that point. And there were plenty of times where I didn't talk to her.

John Moore 37:01

It was I don't know, it was just a weird different. Yeah. She said, Oh my, I have to hear from my son. And then a whole week, and she's like, Oh my God. She said, let me do a wellness check. I love it. Do it, mom. Do the wellness checks. Absolutely. Because kids do that. They're like, oh, I'm free. I don't have to return the calls, but you're also free. But then also, you know, you're away from your parents, and and you're you are, you know, in environments that anything could happen, and that you never know. And so when your parents are calling, hey, respond, call them back. At least text them back, hey mom, I'm okay. Hey, dad, I'm good. Hey, auntie, whomever the loved one is. Good lord. Yeah, well, lesson learned. Yes, lesson learned. Door kicked down and chains broken. Well, I was pissed off because it cost me $75 to have that chain fixed. Well, good. Did you keep on returning her calls after that?

Ryan Calkins 37:53

No, but I would send her a text. I'll call you later. Okay. So at least she knew I was alive.

John Moore 37:58

Good, very good. That did change the approach. That's all that matters. Oh my gosh. I tell you, trying to love on kids. Whew, Lord. I was a grown-ass man. Yeah, well, still. You were her kid regardless. Sheesh. Oh my god, I love that. I love that. What do you think about? Let's go back to this real quick. Um, not to you know, bring over another topic, old topic, but it's you know, within this, but it still makes me think about that leader who has the problem of relinquishing the responsibilities for their own self, you know, self-gratification. So what what is let's talk about that a little bit, if you don't mind. What what let's talk about the dangers again, if you don't mind. I want to put a little more a little sting on that. And let's talk about the outcomes of that mentality of you know not being able to relinquish and being insecure and and the healthiness of it and then the unhealthiness of it. Let's talk to that for a minute.

Ryan Calkins 39:02

I I don't know. I I think when you're a manager that has to control everything and you're afraid to let other people fail, there's an insecurity because you're looking at it as they are a direct reflection of your ability to lead. So if they fail, you take it as a personal failure. Where I was different in that I would stick up for people and say, hey, they're training, you know, I am prepared to take this dip. And I was confident enough in myself to allow that to happen, showing three to six months later, whatever the time frame, that this person is up to speed or beyond where we expected them to be, rather than, you know, staying with the status quo and not allowing them to grow by continuing to do what I was doing. And the first time I did that, I took a real risk. And I'm like, well, you know, if they fail, it's got my name on it. And the first success in that avenue, I guess, was it was validating for me in a different way because I felt confident that, okay, I took somebody that they were afraid was going to fail, they were, you know, on the verbial chopping block, whatever, turned it around to where I was able to take that same approach and apply it to every other person that I was in charge of from that point forward, to where it gave me more confidence in myself saying, I will take this temporary dip to make this person even better than they could be.

John Moore 40:36

Now that's on the positive. Have you had, I've had the challenge where persons did not want to relinquish, wanted to be in control. Uh, it was for their own self, uh, grandiosas, their self-gratifications. They're being celebrated in the boardroom because they feel like they've touched, touch, touch, a little bit touching on the fact that, yes, um if my team messes up, that reflects on me. So that's what that's why I still have to have my hands on it, in it. But I also saw it to where it was the demise of their team. Because the team finally got hooked on to what this was really about. This was not about um them. They had no growth. They had really no participation in the the accolations of things. They wanted more, they wanted had more responsibility, but the leadership wouldn't give the responsibility. Um, so therefore, they wanted that leader, wanted to be that person. I've seen it both sides. I've seen in the positive, what you're alluding to, it becomes a positive outcome. And I've also seen it to where the team destroys and is it's just, you know, it basically separates. People are now looking for, becomes toxic. People are now looking for jobs because the team doesn't grow, the management doesn't allow them to grow, right? Because by relinquishing, you're also allowing your team to grow, right? There's a there's a two two component to it. And I just saw it to where it literally just was the dangers of it, and and it was the demise of a team because the person was so insecure uh and and felt like if I'm not if I'm not in everything, then it just can't be.

Ryan Calkins 42:14

That's it's tough for me because I've seen people that embody that. And I would love to say that that person always flames out and learns a hard lesson, but I feel like they rarely do because the leadership that allows that behavior to begin with usually continues to allow it, will continue to promote that person regardless of everything else, or they end up leaving and taking their skill set, getting a promotion somewhere else, and they continue to grow by job hopping. So if I was in charge of that person, it would be a very different approach uh to more or less forcing some sort of leadership development to help that person improve, but also for the greater good of the team that they're responsible for. But I don't know. I feel like more often than not, those people don't learn a lesson at all and they continue to rise the ranks.

John Moore 43:15

They continue to rise the ranks because it always extenuates and it never goes higher up. So other people know this is the way this person manages. And the reason it extenuates is because they leave, they get fired, unfortunately, whatever else happens and it never moves up in the in the poll. Um, so and thank you for allowing me on that thinking uh thinking in that. And I think I want to kind of close this piece of it by saying a healthy leader is one that does not bring their ego to the leadership, that does not bring their insecurities to the leadership. And I'm gonna put this preference, you try your best not to, and you make sure that you constantly are reflective of that because that's a good leader. A good leader is not about self, a good leader is about all, right? And everything you can possibly do. And are you gonna be perfect at it? Hell no, you're not gonna be perfect at it. But the thing about it is if you try every day, you'll be your best person. But if you don't try at all, you won't be your best person, right? And I think that that's what, you know, is most important about uh the word danger is to try to alleviate that is by trying every day to be your best self and not to go into the dangers of being that person who wants all for themselves, everything is about them, everything is about their growth, their bonuses, their movement, but not about the entire team. So that that's where I that's why I wanted to make sure we talked about that too.

Ryan Calkins 44:40

I will add on to what you said is is if you are trying to be a good leader in an environment that doesn't embrace it or or care for it or the reward the bad behavior, I would say reassess your situation. Look to the leadership above you. And if they're exhibiting the characteristics that you don't associate with yourself, do your best to find another opportunity because you will burn out or become somebody that you don't want to be as a way to move forward and advance.

John Moore 45:15

I agree. And eventually it doesn't lead to a positive.

Ryan Calkins 45:21

So for the audience, what problems are only moving when you have to touch it? And if you look at yourself, are you building confidence in your team or are you building dependency?

John Moore 45:33

And what does dependency really uh what is the outcome of the dependency? Uh that's lack of freedom for you, that's lack of growth for your team, and that's also uh not showing that whole team effort that we're all in this together as well.

Ryan Calkins 45:46

Yeah, so please comment, like, share, do all the things that people do. Absolutely.

John Moore 45:52

Absolutely. We'd love to hear from you. Until next week, leading ain't easy. But you don't have to do it alone.

Ryan Calkins 45:59

Thanks for tuning in to leading ain't easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit reframerise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's ReframeRise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bust Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.