When Leadership Gets Personal

Ryan Calkins and John Moore talk through what happens when you can't separate the manager from yourself; when your team's struggles start to feel like your own failures. This one's for anyone who's ever cared too much about people who didn't ask for it.

There's a version of leadership nobody warns you about: the one where you stop being able to tell where your job ends and your own sense of worth begins. Ryan and John spend this episode in that exact spot.

• Ryan talks through why he's spent his whole career trying to rebuild the camaraderie he had in the military, and what it costs when a team doesn't want that kind of closeness
• John gets into the staff member who told him flatly, "we're not friends, this is just a job", and why it stuck with him longer than he expected
• They both sit with a manager's old rule — "own everything" — and try to figure out honestly what a leader can and can't actually own
• Ryan revisits the PIP story from a past episode, this time from the other side: what it felt like when the person he fought to save left without telling him
• John shares the time he reported a problem in good faith and got removed from the process, and what he'd do differently
• They land on the real distinction: empathy without removing consequences, caring without needing to rescue, and accepting that leadership has limits

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

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Transcript

Ryan Calkins 0:00

Leading Ain't Easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, John Moore. As we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't, the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy. And it's something that I've shared in previous episodes here and there about some struggles that I had, but we were talking and thought that an entire episode kind of tailored around this idea what was warranted.

John Moore 1:09

Absolutely. And not only when uh we take it personally, but what happens to us when we take it personally? What actually happens to you as an individual person and what are the effects of it and what are the outcomes?

Ryan Calkins 1:22

Well, I know, at least for for me, it wasn't a lack of care or anything else. It was uh a struggle sometimes from caring too much and feeling like, I don't know, like sometimes a personal failure when things would would fail. Even if it was, you know, whether it was me or or my staff, I would take things personally just because I had invested so much of myself and my time and energy and everything into what I do.

John Moore 1:49

Did you also feel a little bit of imbalance that you weren't able to balance the two, like being able to separate work from you and these two, they are together, but then they're also separate?

Ryan Calkins 2:01

I think I struggled with it a lot because my goal was always at every place of employment that I've ever had is trying to rebuild the sense of camaraderie that I had in the in the military, where it's, you know, you take care of one another when things get out of control or whatever, you handle it in-house. You are, you know, respectful to each other, but you can more or less speak freely and you have the relationships to be honest, where it's not rude and condescending, but you can give critical feedback to somebody knowing that they like the relationships that you have built, there's enough trust there to know, like when you tell me I'm screwing up, I don't get defensive. And I'm like, well, screw you, John. It's like we've built a camaraderie to where it's like, okay, well, I'm gonna take what you say to heart because we've built this relationship within this team. And it's not something I try to do with one person, but the entire team that that I have. And it's something I've always tried to do.

John Moore 2:59

Yeah, I find that what I have learned, you know, you're saying that it made me start thinking, what I have learned, because uh my staff is people, my staff and people have taught me this, is that the learning lesson is that we cannot, as much as I and I've said this on previous um shows, that I've always wanted to love on myself, I've always wanted to invest in my staff, I've always wanted to give them, you know, that goodness. But I've always found that people just don't always want that. And they don't always appreciate that, that that sacrifice that you're making for them. And I even question today's world. I wonder how difficult is it for a manager to really invest and to really take up for staff today where staff does not have the same investment like the staff had back in the day. What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 3:51

I I don't know. I think that there are a lot of people, even with my own age and and you know, kind of managerial demographic, I guess. I felt like I hate to use the word unicorn because I'm not unique, but it often felt like most people would be adversarial or throw their staff under the bus or do all of these things that were anti-team building and it was more self-preservation of what can I do for myself to get ahead, no matter who they stepped on and the bridges that they burned. Um, I don't know if that has gotten any more prevalent or not as you know, new generations have come in and the workforce has gotten younger. I mean, I I wouldn't be surprised. I don't have any data to back this up. So this is just me talking, but seeing the lack of loyalty to jobs and managers and hopping around, I feel like it's hard to build that loyalty and care for the people that you're next to when you're focused on your next move. And if something better comes along, you jump ship. And I don't even I don't want to present that in a way that's selfish because looking back, there are times where I think, like, yeah, I should have taken care of myself because I ended up getting screwed in the in the long run by staying and and trusting people and organizations that maybe I put too much faith and trust into. And it's tough for me because taking it personally, but also trying to look at it objectively, it's like, yeah, me as an employee kind of feel like I I got screwed and I should have like looked for opportunities to jump ship and change. But then also looking as a manager and from an organization perspective, it's just like I also understand why things go the way they do sometimes.

John Moore 6:02

From the clients that I work with, I have a little bit of finger on the pulse, and I do believe that it is difficult now more than ever because of what you just alluded to. I think the investment on both sides is just not what it used to be. Think about it. The leadership is younger than it's ever been before, right? And then the staff is even younger than it's ever been before. And so the the mind thinking that where we come from, you know, you stay at a job for retirement, you bring your kids to a blah, blah, blah, right? That's just no more. Now, if you have five years, you've been there for a lifetime. So even in that time with the new generation, even within that time, they're always thinking about what's next, what's next, what's next, what's next. And they're not even giving themselves enough time to learn from, you know, where they should be. So I kind of have a little finger on the post, and I think that it has changed drastically to where, uh, as we would say, our core intentions would be, you know, good leader cares. Uh, they take ownership, they feel responsible. That's weaning now. Um, they don't always necessarily do that. I think that they passed the buck. I think that they very well don't know how to take that sometimes. I I think that they take it more towards a personal attack than it is when we were coming up, that it was more in coming up in the in the corporate sectors and in leadership, that it was more of what my management would always say. If your team defaults, if your team doesn't do good, that's an outlook on you. So the goal would always be is how do we develop them? How do we train them? How do we um make sure they have the proper initiatives, that they have the proper ownership, that they have the tools, right? And and not micromanage, but give them enough guidance that they knew what to do. I don't know if that's happening right now. From what I'm hearing from leaderships that I work with, it's not happening as much. One, the kids don't stay, excuse me, the folks don't stay as long. So you don't even get a chance to invest in them like you would like to. You don't even get a chance to give them all of the the goodies that you would like to teach them because they're not there long enough.

Ryan Calkins 8:08

It's it's such a weird discussion, or at least thought, because when I was starting my career and coming up, it felt like resources were limited. Training was like very selective. If you wanted to get training, you had to go out and do it on your own. The companies weren't willing to pay for it in a lot of instances. And then it became more of a focus for companies, and they were willing to invest. And it was like, okay, we're going to put you through this training, we're going to do this. And now it feels again like there's kind of a even though we have more resources available than ever before, it feels like there's been kind of a pullback on putting people in positions to succeed. So I don't know if we're like coming out of the other end of whatever uh training and and leadership development there was, but it just seems like there's a big focus on cutting back, even though companies aren't necessarily struggling.

John Moore 9:20

This is a that's a very good point, too. But and it's funny you bring that up because typically that is the first thing things that are cut is uh the training departments, and we're figuring out different ways and methodologies is how we can train people up. LMS's learning management systems is the first place they'll go to contract training that has no association with the business whatsoever. Um, all of those things are um usually brought in. But I think what's in what happens in those times, kind of going from what you're describing, there's a silent form of weight that comes on the individuals that weighs in on them as to what they're individually responsible for, meaning a leadership person or and or the staff person. Staff person is feeling like, I gotta learn this to keep my job. Leadership is saying, but we don't have the tools. How do I bring this in? Because if I don't give them this, then they won't be successful. Then that reflects on me. So though there, there's a period, you're absolutely right, that it ebbs and it flows. We're doing good, training is our focus. We're making sure we're training our leaders, we're training our staff, yah, yeah, yeah. We're all supportive. Then it comes with, oh, budget. We don't have money. We got to cut. Then everything is about go, you know, go for what you know. Uh, then it comes back again. Oh, we got to get training back in again. This is constant ebb and flow or roller coaster, whatever you want to call it, that does happen. But I do believe that there also begets a weight on the leadership and or the staff member that that comes upon them that they feel like I'm responsible. I'm responsible for outcomes, I'm responsible for this. And then some of that I don't think that they should be responsible for. What are your thoughts about that?

Ryan Calkins 10:57

Well, it I don't know. It's something that I have struggled with myself is feeling responsible for, like, I don't know. It it's kind of a a sense of staff that I get that are reporting to me, they're, there's, I don't know, that this feeling of they're they're under my care, right? Like I should be there to make sure that they're successful, that they're put in the best possible position to well, succeed. Um but I don't know, like there, there's times where I have felt like I'm operating with a hand behind my back because I want what's best for them. And I only have the resources available that I can provide and I can make recommendations, but I can't force people to do things. Like they still have to be willing to want to do them. And I don't know, it is a personal struggle for me sometimes because like when I see a staff member or team member that that's struggling, and I feel like I'm doing everything that I can for them. I'm I feel like I'm failing when they aren't improving, even though I know like I can only do so much to influence a situation. And there's times, I don't know, I I've never been the person that wants to look at at firing or starting paperwork as a means to get somebody out the door. Like I look at everybody can be saved, you know, even if it's not true. And it took a long time. I'm not even gonna say I'm uh I'm necessarily okay with it now, but there are points to where you get and you're like, okay, nothing is the situation is not going to change. And I learned how to, instead of trying to force somebody to be successful in the role that they have, is to try and look at leaning into what people's strengths are and then starting to buy into leveraging one's strengths and not focusing on their weak points, making them aware of what their weaknesses are, um, you know, but really trying to help find positions where they can be more successful and trying to give them different opportunities to succeed.

John Moore 13:28

I agree with all of what you say, but I also come from a realistic standpoint to where staff will teach you better than you would ever experience it. And they'll teach you whether or not that investment is really there. It makes me think about this statement. Um, most leaders don't struggle because they don't care. They get to a point where they stop caring because they can't be the only ones caring, just like what you were just talking about. You know, there's gotta be something else we can do. It's funny you're feeling that way, but is the is the staff feeling that way? Is the staff feeling like I have done all the things I possibly can do to keep my job? They're like, F you, I'm out, you know, in some cases. And in some cases, you do have people who are sitting there saying, boss, what can I do? You know, to improve. But that number and that scale is just teetering. It's just not going in a positive direction because of the pool that you have to select from, right? Then you have another one where you think the struggle is because you care too much, kind of going to where you're you're alluding to. And that is in some cases, I was there too. And I'm not being a skeptic, I'm coming from a real life experience. A couple of times it's happened to me where all I wanted to do was treat them better than they were treated before. And then you sit there and you think, well, this is why they were treated this way. And that's your outcome, and that's the worst outcome to feel. Because you you're coming in like you're you're talking. I'm coming in possibly with that hero mentality. I want to save everyone, I want to show them that they're the best. I think I've told you guys on this podcast where the people told me to fire everyone. I was like, How are you gonna fire everyone? That means I won't have anybody, and you're looking for training to be done. That's not a good thought to do. So I said, No, I think I can get these folks up to speed.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

I think I could I I wish I would have followed the direction.

John Moore 15:19

But then it would have been all on me that they would have had no one. I could hear right now. Well, John, how could you fire everyone? Now we don't have anyone to train anybody. But you told me to fire everybody. Literally, when I came in, fire everybody. Bold, fire them. We want to get rid of them.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

But then you won't have anyone to train.

John Moore 15:41

So it's it's a it's a kind of a catch 22 situation. You you want to care, but in some cases you get to the point where you don't care because you don't have the same investment that you are putting in, you're not getting back. And that's a sad thing because it would be so awesome that the investment in which you were putting in, the staff member was also doing the same. You are meet you are meeting each other. That's that's what we want, that's what we look forward to. But you know, people which I've learned from them, which is actually a good attitude that I learned to learn from them. This is just a job for me. I don't care about y'all. This is what I was learned that I learned from the staff. This is just a job for me. We're not friends. Yeah, I'm thinking we're friends, we're going to lunch together. I'm taking y'all out to lunch because you never went out to lunch with the boss before. I'm thinking I'm doing all this stuff, and they're like, we're not friends. This is a job. And I learned that, and I tell you, I will never forget it. It hurt my feelings because I was like, why not have someone that really respects you and loves on you? And when I use the word love or whatever, just really wants to make you happy at your job, the place you're spending the majority of your life. That's how I went in. I didn't come out the same way. So that's a bummer.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

Isn't that a bummer?

Ryan Calkins 17:01

I mean, I I I get it, but it sucks. I I don't know, like I I experienced similar things and somehow still I feel like I didn't come out jaded, just more aware. Um, I still like my first instinct is to befriend people. I mean, obviously, like people that you connect with, you're not gonna be friends with everybody. There's some people that are just off-putting, and you may be off-putting to them, and it's just not gonna work. But I don't know. I it it I don't know. The the hardest part is when you befriend somebody, or maybe you're not even friends, but you but you're cordial, and you know that they aren't giving it their all, and you see the potential, but you can't force change. You're like, come on, you jackass, just do this thing. Like you can you can do it. And they're like, I don't care. I'm like, but you should care. Like it's it's right there for the taking, and you're totally qualified, and for some reason you're just stuck idling.

John Moore 18:15

So because we identify that each person's success ratio is is independent, it's not all on the same scale. Everybody's success, their success is I just got up and came to work. Yay. That's my success. But you said you said something else that triggered a thought about um, you know, befriending and and and you know, making relationships and having relationships. Before I learned the years in, before I learned the true role of HR, I that was my first thing. I gotta get it good in with HR, I gotta get good in with HR. And I've always wanted to, you know, have those relationships and have the inside scoop and stuff. And then they're the ones that they're the worst because their objective is not to be friends, their objective is to uh to the litigate and to make sure the company's in the best interest. And so if there's anything that's gonna come up, they're doing the reverse. You're thinking, oh, you're building relationships with Mary, oh, we're going out to lunch together, and Mary's sitting there, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You're like, what? And then at the end, it's like, whoa, so this wasn't about a relationship at all. It wasn't.

Ryan Calkins 19:23

No, no, they were filing it in the uh in the data bank.

John Moore 19:26

Putting it in the data bank, and um, it hurts. But I think that, so we're not on such a narrow note, there's so many positives about even learning within the negative, right? That you can be a better leader. You just can't come in so jaded, you can't come in so wide-eyed and bushy-tailed, like you're gonna change the world. I think you have to come in very moderately. You gotta find that scalability. So once you find out where you are, I either go up or I go down. Instead of me coming in on the ups and I'm thinking, oh, I'm gonna save the world, everybody's gonna love me, and we're everybody's gonna be happy and we're gonna, because that's how I used to come in. It's like, oh, I'm gonna change the world. You had a bad boss, now you're gonna have a great boss, and we're gonna do all these wonderful things. And they're like, yeah, right, we'll see how that works. Let's see how long it'll take before we get them out of here.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

You're like, well.

John Moore 20:21

But it happens. It really, really does. I don't, I it and it happens in so many different ways, I think, in the realities of it all, and the unhappiness, kind of what you were alluding to, the unhappiness and feeling uh the sense of failure as a leader. But I don't know if that's for us to feel like a failure today.

Ryan Calkins 20:40

Well, I know the so the the old mindset was that you don't leave a company, you leave a a manager, right? And that is also the the mindset that I've taken in, where like I don't I know I can't save everything and everybody, but I can say I'm not going to, like you said, I'm not gonna be like the the last manager that you had and what you've been accustomed to, and just having a different approach and and being, I don't know, respectful to people and coming in with letting them know that they know more than I do. I'm not here to tell you how to do your job, I'm here to give you the aid and the assistance that you need to do even better. And it has always worked, and it's why I struggled like when people would leave. And I would struggle personally because it's like, well, fuck, I'm I was a good boss. Like I I know I was. You told me I was. But then I'm like, well, I'm also in an organization that is challenging, and there are many toxic elements to where I was able to, you know, shield some things, but there's also like I had my own struggles within companies where I'm trying to navigate within environments that were not conducive to. Team building without trying, you know, what felt like alienating, and I don't know how to explain it, but you're kind of like creating a bond of a team that kind of becomes a silo within an organization. And not to say like clicky, because it's not like it was, you know, a high school click thing. It was just more, you know, you create like a team name, and you guys have character and support, and you push forward and you and you just do things.

John Moore 22:37

But at the same time, these things in which we're talking about do happen. And I always want to know kind of what did I learn from it? You know, what was what's gonna be my next stage of life, right? Um, I remember leaving the jobs that I have left, and I wanted to say, okay, well, what was this experience for? You know, what did I gain from this? Did was I able to separate me being a leader versus me being a personal guy myself, or did I blend the two together because they both those egos still wanted to be pleased. You know, that was something else I've had to start learning about myself too. Um, and I think in each time that there became a new opportunity to become a new leader, I brought something either bad or good, you know, the experience. I brought it to the next to say, don't forget, put that in your wisdom bank. This could happen. Be prepared. Don't forget, you were excellent on this. Use that so that you can bring them on, you know, to your side. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I think it goes back to the other point, too, that we had made earlier. Is that really we can't, you know, we can't conduct how the future's gonna be. I'll say it, we didn't say it in that way, but you can't ever you cannot determine how the future's gonna be. But what we can do is we can do our best. We can. You know, we we've been built with a with a philosophy that we were told as leaders own everything. Everything is yours. Everything if it effs up, you're you that's your F up. And then we could not, as a manager told me one time, blame it on your staff. We couldn't use that. And I couldn't believe he said that. Love them to death, love him to death now, but I just could not do it. I was like, man, I can't do that. Because I was taught years before that whatever they do is a reflection of you.

SPEAKER_03 24:32

So own it. You know what I'm saying? Own it. I guess it depends on the people above you. Uh-huh.

Ryan Calkins 24:45

So how their mindset and and view on everything is is if you're throwing staff under the bus, it could be off-putting for them, but maybe it's not maybe it's how they are. Maybe they're going into a meeting and John and his team really screwed up.

John Moore 25:00

Yeah, they screwed up. I I had to get on them because they're like, what?

Ryan Calkins 25:03

And you're like, no, it wasn't me, it was my team.

John Moore 25:07

It's just crazy. But you know what? You have to be prepared for that too. And you have to be prepared for that. I tell you, the wonderful thing about leadership, I must say, is the learning process. If you get nothing else out of being a leader, you learn so much. You learn people, you learn leadership, you learn training. And there's so many things you learn if you really allow yourself to um to be a better person. Because I tell you, if you don't, you come out ready to go to the to the crazy war because it's like, wow. And I'm sorry, I don't mean scare you guys out there, but it's it's not for the weak. It's not for the weak at heart. It really isn't. It's not for the weak at heart. And sometimes, you know, you have to worry, uh, you know, am I selling my soul? And what am I selling my soul for?

Ryan Calkins 25:58

True. I mean, you I don't know, I've I've never it's gotten me in trouble by not compromising my values. Um, but it's something that I refuse to do, and it is a hill that I will die on, and I have been terminated before because I refuse to do things that I don't believe in.

John Moore 26:22

And same for me as well. But the unfortunate is that where does that get us at the end of the day? The staff isn't knocking on your door saying, Here's your rent money, here's your mortgage, here's your here's some food to eat. They've just like you this is what's so funny. And I told and I told somebody this one of my clients actually, I told them I say, just as much as you were important to that organization, you're replaceable.

Ryan Calkins 26:43

Yeah. No, I found that out the hard way.

John Moore 26:46

I I thought that I was uh an asset to the to the organization, right?

Ryan Calkins 26:52

And I I don't even even mean like irreplaceable in the sense that, oh, I know this technical skill so well that nobody else can do it. It's just when you are like a glue that brings the team together, helps move things forward, and you sometimes you think that you have more value than you do. And then when you're gone, you think it's gonna be this Jerry Maguire moment or or Rudy where everybody's laying down their jerseys for you, and it's just like, well, all right.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

See you later. Yeah, exactly.

John Moore 27:30

And it's it's the most sobering thought because you're thinking, like you said, I think it's better that you said the best way. You're thinking you're the one that's holding everything together. And when you're gone, like I said, nobody's calling and saying, John, we really need you to come back. Is there any way? Hell no.

Ryan Calkins 27:48

No, it's it's like you have your friends and whatever that that care genuinely cared about you that will text, oh, I can't believe that happened, blah, blah, blah. That's bullshit. I should leave too. And I'm like, well, thanks for the sentiment, but we know you're not gonna leave.

John Moore 28:01

Exactly. Exactly. But but we have had that experience, and I must say that experience felt pretty damn cool when everyone did say, Well, I'm gone too. I think that was pretty damn cool. And it really showed me that there was something that was there that made people feel that way. Now, no money was at stake, but it was a sure principle.

Ryan Calkins 28:22

Well, I think that's I think that's what made that decision easier.

John Moore 28:25

Mm-hmm. Of course. Now, money was at stake. We might have been sitting there saying, Oh, sorry, sir, you're gone. I'd love to follow you, man, but I got I got bills. I got bills. Lord and mercy. It's just it's it's it's so funny, but I I go back to that statement. Own everything, right? But nobody really takes all the time to identify what they need to own.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

Nobody does. Or do they care? I'm throwing that back at you. Do they even care?

Ryan Calkins 28:58

What can I do? I don't know if the I don't know if other people care. I I I think sometimes sometimes in leadership and managerial positions, you have more access to knowledge and information. So I think that there are situations where others may care, but they might have no idea that certain things are happening. Like I I think it was the PIP episode, the performance improvement plan episode that we talked about, where I shared that somebody at a company that I was at was on the chopping block, and she wasn't a direct report of mine, but I knew the situation that she was under with a manager that wasn't qualified to supervise her, or anybody really. But this particular situation, she wanted her fired, and the company was leaning on it because her billable hours and everything else were not where they needed to be. And I said, you know, give me six months. I will put her on a pip, we'll get everything squared away. And I did. And, you know, she got under me. We worked on the pip. We put joint goals together, and my intent with a pip was never the the means to get her out the door. It was something that I genuinely wanted to have a working document where she could see exactly what the objectives were, what we were trying to accomplish. And six months later, like just completely turned around, became a really reliable consultant, and was doing great. And then put in her two-week notice to HR. And that hurt me because I was like, dude, like you couldn't even tell me that you were leaving. I still didn't you I believed in you. Go ahead. Well, and and and I asked her about it. She's just like, Well, I didn't want you to be mad at me, and that kind of hurt me more than like you you thought that I would be upset with you for leaving. Like, hell no. If you could be more successful and happier somewhere else, take what you learned here and and go apply it. Like, I took that personally because I was like, wow, I thought we built enough trust and everything in this relationship that we had to, you know, be more open without the the fear of I don't even want to say retaliation. That's like an HR word, but with without uh, you know, like a a negative reaction. I don't I don't know.

John Moore 31:34

I find that I find that to be so so disheartening because when you invest so much um in someone, like I mean, literally, you you stopped them from being fired. So did I. And then you do all these things. I did a team building, I did training so they could be certified trainers. I I brought in people that were doing the showed them how to do what they should be doing, all those good things.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

And then that meant nothing. I mean, I don't know.

Ryan Calkins 32:04

Like, I I thought about that, and like we're still friendly and we're still part of a group chat together. And she asked me to be a reference every time she applies for a new job, and I appreciate that. I know that there's still a relationship there and and things are fine. It was just in that moment I was like, Nice FD. Dude, you know me better than that.

John Moore 32:25

Like, come on. Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that that part is still there because it does make a difference. You know, that does speech the relationship that you have. It really, really does.

Ryan Calkins 32:35

Yeah, no, and that part feels good. And I mean, it I guess it's it's validating in a sense that I know like she didn't leave because of me. But like I mentioned before, there's sometimes situations where people still leave because the organization as a whole isn't the right fit or the job isn't the right fit, and they can be better or more successful in what they were doing and improve and learn more, but it could still be a mismatch or misalignment.

John Moore 33:02

I agree. I totally agree. No, I agree with that. I agree with that. Going back to our boss is telling us to own everything. Let me throw some of these at you and you tell me if I'm, you know, what you're feeling on it, right? So can you own the environment? Can you own the expectation? Can you own the communication? Can you own the support? Is any of that realistic?

Ryan Calkins 33:26

To some degree, yes.

John Moore 33:28

Okay.

Ryan Calkins 33:29

I think, like I mentioned before, when you are team building and you have your own staff, you have a certain amount of control, I guess, in in helping to shape it and build it. But if it's not in alignment with the overall organization's objectives or other things, like if it isn't fully kind of blended with the environment, it can be problematic. And there's only so much you can control within your team, but you ne can't necessarily control what happens to your team or things within the company that dictate members of your team or or things like that.

John Moore 34:11

So you do so you do believe you can own the outcome. I mean, excuse me, you can own the environment.

Ryan Calkins 34:17

I think that you can help shape the environment. I don't think you ever actually own it unless it's your business and you are the person that that is creating it.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Okay. All right. What about the expectation? You think we all have it?

Ryan Calkins 34:34

You can own I think you can own the expectations in the sense of of goal setting because you are responsible for them. But like you have a certain amount of influence and you're trying to gain buy-in, so people are working on the same goals with the same objectives, and you're kind of setting the expectation on what you are pursuing and how you're going to do it. But I don't I think you you ultimately own it because it is an expectation and a goal that you have as a manager. But I think it would be silly to say that you are fully, I don't even want to say fully responsible because at the end of the day, you are responsible. Um, but I think that you should, to the degree that you can, leverage your team and staff to really work together to capitalize on what that objective is.

John Moore 35:33

Well, I agree. I agree. I think, I think we have the ability to own the environment. I think we have the ability to own the expectations because the expectations, if you think about KPIs and all the new ways that we do all the critiquing of the, the, the, the, the functionality of the day-to-day business, that you do have a guide, you do have something that we are all engaged on. So we can control the expectation. I think also we can control or own, if you will, the communication, how we communicate, right? What we're communicating. Uh, making sure the communicating, the communication, excuse me, is of such that there's true understanding. What do you think about the communication?

Ryan Calkins 36:14

I think you can, uh, especially as a manager or a leader. I think that the way you communicate often is reflected by the people that you communicate with.

John Moore 36:26

I agree. I agree. And then last one I was thinking about was the support. Do you think we own the support, how we support, what type of support, limited, over? What do you think about the support company?

Ryan Calkins 36:38

I think that you can own the support that you provide. I don't think you can necessarily control the support that you receive.

John Moore 36:48

Okay. Speak more to that.

Ryan Calkins 36:52

I think a lot of times you get put in situations where you are given objectives or goals with a lack of budget and resources, and you don't necessarily have, or you might not even have support in the sense of higher leadership.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Ryan Calkins 37:13

You know, being a face or voice that helps move the initiative that that they've assigned to you. Um, you still are expected to accomplish this, and you can provide all the support in the world, which you are in control of. But the again, the the support that you're receiving isn't necessarily there, and you have to learn how to uh adapt and and work with what you have.

John Moore 37:40

Well, and I agree with that, which then leads me to the to the other side of that, which is we cannot control or we cannot own, if you will, the choices. We can't, every choice we cannot own because each person or each scenario is gonna be different. Every reaction. We don't ever we want everyone to be on board and we want them to say, oh, we love today. Everything is great. And it's like, no, I don't think so. We got that. And then also we can't own every outcome. Each outcome is gonna be different based upon how and what we put in. There's some things that we can own. I remember like the whole point of me bringing this up was the boss saying you own everything. Some things you can own, and there's some things you cannot. And I think that's a part of leadership too that we really have to get under our um under our heads, under our you know, mind scopes, our approach, is that there's some things that we can control and there's gonna be some things we can't control. And a lot of managers come in thinking, well, I want to control all of this, I want to control how you respond, I want to control how how you react to the situation, I want to control your choices. And it's like, no, buddy, that's not gonna work. Because in in the in the awning of the business, there's certain components that we run, and then there's certain components that the staff run. And the pieces that the staff run, they run it. And the pieces that we do, we do. And that's where that true divide comes into play. And a lot of the times I've seen mean management try to um be more suggestive and pushed so that they can push their, you know, their opinion so that therefore the outcome will be different, or they'll push their choices so that the choice will be in line with what they want, but it never really works. It never works. What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 39:28

No, when when you mentioned trying to control people's emotions or reactions, it just immediately made me think of my grandpa saying, keep crying, I'll give you something to cry about, and then like you stop crying, you know? So he would control.

John Moore 39:44

Hey, listen, leave your grandpapa out of it. He was doing what he thought was best. It was effective, wasn't it? I mean, it got me to stop crying at the moment. Thank you. And the other thing of it is is that sometimes what what were we crying for? Were we really crying for anything specifically, or were we just crying to get our way?

Ryan Calkins 40:01

I don't know. He said it so many times. It's probably both.

John Moore 40:06

Yeah, we because I know when it was said to me, it was like, well, I'm gonna shut up now because I it ain't that serious to keep crying. Yeah. It's not worth a butt, Woven. It's not weird. Thank you. So let that go. Good lord. That's too funny. There are um, when we think about the actual goings-on of leadership, right? And how it has affected so many different places within the the world of corporate, if you will. Where do you think you see the most effective or ineffectiveness of leadership not being able to distinguish the personal from you know the input that they have to input in their jobs? Where do you think that in early leadership? And then what do you think will be now?

Ryan Calkins 40:57

I I think it's what we talked about initially when we started talking on how you kind of come in with the idea that that you're going to save the day or change the world, and you're going to bring in this revolutionary new leadership approach, and you're trying to stop anything bad from occurring. And when you are trying to save everybody from everything, it's impossible. And I think the more you fail, the harder it is first, because maybe you're you're not used to failing, you know. But every failure is a learning opportunity, and you get a little, you get a little more knowledge and you get a little more callused, right? So you take your wounds, you heal, you you adapt, you learn from all of the mistakes that you make. And you can have somebody sitting there being a mentor and everything else and and providing you guidance, but all the guidance in the world doesn't really matter until you experience it yourself and you really just take a beating. And I think when you're a more mature leader, you're not focused on trying to prevent fires and put everything out. Not that you want to be chasing the fires, you know, you want you do want to proactively get ahead of things, but you're focused more on responding in the situation and instead of trying to always be in prevent mode.

John Moore 42:35

Or prevent mode. No, I agree. I I agree. I I was thinking about that when you're talking uh mature, mature leadership, they change. And what they do in early leadership, they'll ask the questions, how can I prevent things from going wrong? Right? An experienced leader may say, how do I respond when there's, you know, nothing that really need to respond to just yet? Let's see how it goes. You know, a lot of the times, as you said, we want to be preemptive. We want to be there and catch everything. But if you just allow it to be what it is, maybe we don't have to catch anything. Maybe we don't have to always be that person. What are you thinking about that? What are your thoughts about that?

Ryan Calkins 43:15

Well, I I I just think people are often uh afraid to fail. And like it also depends on when you when you're an early leader, it depends on the leadership above you and their approach to to leadership, to leadership, and and what they expect and how they treat failure. And looking at a, you know, really a non trivial failure. Uh huh. I guess it would be a trivial failure versus something that that is really important. I mean, if you have a major screw up, then maybe you get terminated, but maybe that may. Manager is like, well, I put this person in a in a position to fail.

John Moore 44:05

Mm-hmm. And you use the word uh fail, but I think of it more of feedback, right? Because we have to change that that mind scope, because that's why a lot of people don't like to deal with failure, because they look at it as such as that, I fail. But what if we looked at it from a standpoint of saying, hey, that's just feedback for you. That's just a way to make you do and be better. And some people have difficulties just with the simple fact of the word or and or the challenge of not being always the successor on that side or or the successful person on the other side. I find it that sometimes just to play on words, I find that sometimes just people don't deal well with certain things. And we have to figure out ways and and how we change that. You know, again, we can't control every outcome, but some things in which you can, you will.

Ryan Calkins 44:57

Yeah, no, that's true. And as long as you're focused on on the big picture and what the objective is, it's like the the little, I mean, I still call them failures, but nothing is is catastrophic.

John Moore 45:11

No, I agree with you. And I think when we, as young leaders, older leaders or senior leaders, mature leaders, um, we have to really absorb that. We have to really respect that, that everything's not gonna be perfect. There are gonna be times where we're gonna be challenged. Um, what do you do with the challenge? You know, are we gonna try to fix every single thing? You can't fix every single thing. It's not supposed to be fixed. Or if you do fix it, what are we learning from it?

Ryan Calkins 45:38

Yeah, I I the other piece I guess that I I used to struggle with was when people would have a negative reaction or or get upset. I would think that I failed somehow and I caused the way that they feel. And I think as I got older, I realized that some people you just cannot please. Like they're never going to be happy, but you have to know like they may be upset, but I'm still making the the right decision and I'm okay with that. So you internalize it. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to externalize that piece without, I mean, going back to the fix your face episode, I I struggle to also convey my feelings uh or hide my feelings. Um, I have a horrible poker face.

John Moore 46:29

And we can win the game with you. Go ahead.

Ryan Calkins 46:33

It it's just uh I I I think just going in with the expectation that initially I used to go in with the expectation that that because of a relationship with somebody, it would be an easy and positive uh conversation. And the first time that it wasn't, and things really blew up in my face and I didn't know how to respond, I felt kind of helpless. And I was like, well, shit, I'm I'm the manager here, and I'm the one that feels like, you know, I'm on the receiving end of critical feedback somehow. And I don't know, like I never wanted to be in that position again. So I always assumed, no matter what our relationship was like, that there was a chance things could be taken the wrong way. So I went in preparing for things to potentially be negative. And since I've done that, I feel like they've never really been as bad as I make them in my head, which makes the conversation easier.

John Moore 47:42

And that's that's a good way to deal with some certain things. And it's, but I also find it's where that internalization is so and it's so pure because it comes from a good place, and which is good. But then also too, it could be misplaced a little bit sometimes, can it be? I don't know, in what way? Well, when you internalize everything, right, and you internalize it being your fault, or you internalize you being on the disciplinary tip where the one should have been, and things like that, it doesn't always bode well with you personally. It doesn't always benefit you because you're you're internalizing something that really was not yours to take on. It wasn't your responsibility to take on, which is somebody else's, whether they're being right up or somebody else's poor behavior, somebody else's issue, you then in turn take it in and it wasn't for you to take in. It wasn't yours to be responsible for. It wasn't yours to be internalized.

Ryan Calkins 48:36

No, that's fair. I I've gotten in trouble quite a bit for that as well, and taking on battles that had nothing to do with me.

John Moore 48:43

Nothing to do with you. And that's something I had to learn too, because I was trying to save the world too, but the world wasn't trying to be saved. Well, I was just personally invested in those people that I felt like were completely getting screwed over. 100%. I'm with you. But I learned by experience. It's just the saddest thing. Go ahead, go ahead.

Ryan Calkins 49:02

I don't know. I feel like even knowing you now, depending on the situation, I can't imagine you sitting idly by if things were like egregious to the point where you're like, I have to speak up.

John Moore 49:17

Okay, if it's egregious, you you use that word yes. But if it's something that I'm like, I I'm not me, Punky Brown. No, been there, done that. I put myself on the sword many times. It's like, mm-mm, now you got it. But now if it was something egregious, like unfortunate sexual harassment, prejudice, you know, some of the big ones, yes, I would. But if it was something that, you know, that wasn't my fight, I have learned my lessons. Because I was that person. I was that person to run to rally and and try to be there for the people. Just can't do it anymore. And it defeats the purpose of having experience and learn nothing from it.

SPEAKER_03 50:04

Whether good or bad.

Ryan Calkins 50:07

I'd l I'd like to say I have. I'd like to think I have. I mean, I guess it's been a minute since I've had to.

John Moore 50:16

But I don't want to I don't want to get get that you to think that I think it's awesome that you have that way of thinking, but it's just it it it wings on you after a period of time of being hurt so many times and disappointed so many times, and the outcomes don't come out. And somebody go say, well, John, you guys are all disabled, y'all, but it's not because well, it is and it isn't. It was our previous episode talking about our egos, and yes, our egos are invested, but also at the bottom line is our hearts on the line because we really care about our staff and want the best for them. And I think that comes before my ego. And so if you put so much in it and then you get nothing out of it, like you don't get a positive outcome, people are not appreciated that you put your, you know, you put yourself on the line, enough time out for that.

Ryan Calkins 51:03

Well, the worst situations are the ones where you not even gossip, but you you communicate and you know that things are wrong or off, or there's an elephant in the room, and being the one that isn't afraid to bring it up for the purpose of discussion and addressing it so we can all move the hell on. I've been in situations where it's like we have an opportunity, I bring it up, and fucking crickets, and I'm like, no one really? So then I just look like the asshole all by myself, standing there, and I'm like, dude, all right, thanks, guys.

John Moore 51:49

No, it's funny you bring that up. Now I do have a comparison on that because I remember I would go to my boss about the situation, which was about, so he was the SVP, she was the uh AVP, and all the complaints was about the AVP, but she, the majority of the complaints were from another staff member that would come and vent to me. I would then go vent to my big boss because we I thought we had a relationship. Well, unfortunately, he is one that says, Well, I just want to get it out there. We're just gonna get it out there and don't consider, don't consider anyone, right? And so what he did was he put it out there and he says, and so where where where did you hear this from, John? And I was like, Why would you ex me that? And I'm literally responding this way. And he was like, Don't be ashamed. You said who it was. And now I had to say who had, you know, put confidence in me, which now is gonna, which you did, X me out. And then it put me on a chopping block with that AVP that I was on her radar 24 hours, seven days a week. And so I'll never forget him doing that to me. Even to this day, I can feel that ugh feeling. It was just like, and I, and I had to years, years, years later, I met up with her and had lunch, and I apologized again because I felt so bad. Because I wasn't going to him to to tattle, I was going to put to him to do something about it. You know, do something about it. And he put us all on the spot.

SPEAKER_03 53:26

Asked me, did we get a resolve? No. So what was the point? There was no point to it. Yeah, that oh, that that was a blast from the past. I I can't believe I remembered that one. Yeah.

John Moore 53:40

I felt so bad. Somebody put confidence in you, you then go to the big boss and say, Hey, I need your help. He then in turn says, We need to get this out. We need to just get it out there. John, ooh, this bottle. And I'm sitting there like, what? And what I should have did was say, you know what? Never mind. I'm not gonna say I should have said I shouldn't have said anything.

Ryan Calkins 54:07

You'd think that I would I would learn the first time that that that happened to me, but God, you did it again? Well, it was it was different. Like the first one or two times were ver it was it was like in a group open floor setting where everybody's supposed to be safe and allowed freedom of which is bullshit. Oh name BS. Oh, 100%. So you call out a manager, whatever, nobody speaks up, so you're the only one, and now you're competitive with with the the manager who now hates you.

John Moore 54:42

Yes, because you can put all his business out there.

Ryan Calkins 54:45

No, the the the last one, I just everywhere I go, I end up being the person that people confide in. And I don't repeat anything that anybody tells me unless they specifically ask me to. And I will ask them, like, do you want me to do anything about this? And I was in a situation where there was a staff member that was reporting to another manager, and this manager had a history of just treating people like nothing, and was just a very bad manager that was a good worker.

John Moore 55:27

Oh, a producer, okay.

Ryan Calkins 55:29

Yeah. And this person asked me, you know, told me what was going on, said that she didn't want to report it to say anything because she was afraid that the person above her would find out and make it even harder for her. And I said, Okay, if you don't want me to say anything, I I'm not, you know, and she's like, okay, well, just not right now. And a little time goes by, she comes back, tells me something else, and then it is continuing to go. I'm like, Do you want me to do anything about it? And she's like, Well, can you just mention it to somebody? I said, sure. So I called the person above me, let him know what was going on. He's like, Okay, you know, just write a report, whatever. He's probably tired of complaints on this other manager that was the only person in the company that ever received any complaints. And I uh I typed it up, you know, typed up everything that she told me, made sure it was completely uh uh unbiased email. Yep. So I didn't want any of my personal thoughts about anybody in it. I wrote it completely objectively, only exactly what she she had told me. Sent it in. He said, okay, you and the and the VP will take care of it and blah, blah, blah. So I submit it. I get a letter or an email back saying, um, basically, due to the nature of this and and the discussion of uh retribution or or or retaliation uh concerns, we're gonna remove you from this and the board's gonna handle it. I'm like, shit. I knew right then I was gonna get screwed over because this person was a very timid person that, if confronted, I knew would be like, oh no. Like, I didn't say that. Or it's no big deal, and and would brush it, you know. And I'm like, so you're gonna remove the only person that she felt safe enough to tell, I knew what was gonna happen. What I didn't know is that the person that got the complaint filed on them was moving into ownership in the company. And I'm like, oh, okay. I mean, it wouldn't have stopped me from writing the report because it was still warranted. But I'm like, okay, I see what's going on. And then it basically put a target on my back for trying to do the right thing.

SPEAKER_03 58:10

I think we have to pick and choose our battles wisely.

Ryan Calkins 58:15

It was a battle I didn't even know I was headed into.

John Moore 58:18

Exactly. I tell you. I guess that the the the learning from that will be is what did we learn? And then also to um picking and choosing what we do and how much we do invest in and how much we push. Because let me tell you, I think I look at it like this. If a person is feeling that way and they're not doing anything about it, why should I do something? No, it's fair. That's that's me thinking now. I get you back then, but it's like now, if they're not pressed about being demeaned to talk to like whatever, then that's on you.

Ryan Calkins 58:52

And the worst part is the initial person that she went to was the same level as me, and she referred her to me to take it forward and do it.

SPEAKER_03 59:04

And I'm like, See, she knew they knew they knew you the cry on the shoulder. That was a setup.

John Moore 59:13

Well, I think the wonderful thing is again, being in leadership, although we know it's not easy, um, there's so much we can learn. God knows there's so much we can learn, and it does us a disservice by being in leadership, whether it's an hour, whether it's 50, whether it's 50 years, there's so much that we can learn on a daily basis.

Ryan Calkins 59:33

Yeah, yeah. No, well, I mean, what I what I learned from those unfortunate experiences was to not carry others' weight, but to try and encourage them to do it themselves and be be confident in their own decision making and that I will be there to support you if you need it, but you need to be the one to to do it.

John Moore 59:57

I agree. I 100% I agree. Because putting your putting yourself on the line for someone that's gonna say, Oh no, I never said that, or no, no, no, that's not. Because that's exactly what that young lady did with me.

Ryan Calkins 1:00:08

I I guarantee that's what happened, but I wasn't privy to the conversation because I got removed from it.

John Moore 1:00:14

I felt so bad. I really did. I felt so bad because like you said, some she confided in me. I went to solve the problem thinking I had a relationship and that he was gonna keep it. So, people out there, if you ever put in a situation like that, I know you know we're going back and forth, but I tell you, think about it, think about it, think about it. If it's something that's truly egregious that you just cannot live with, yes, you need to act. We're not saying that. But if it's something that we need to employ our uh employer that our employ our employees to do it on their own and to support them throughout it, um, let them do it on their own because then they'll learn how to stand up for themselves. They'll learn how to be brave, they will learn what they need to learn because again, by always being there for someone to catch them, where's the learning taking place? There is none. There isn't any.

Ryan Calkins 1:01:19

Yeah, so the the things that we we kind of covered were uh having empathy without removing the consequences, very good, caring without the the need to rescue. Very good, reflecting without attacking yourself and making you feel like you somehow failed, and accepting that that leadership just has limits.

John Moore 1:01:42

I couldn't say it better. I couldn't say it better, absolutely.

Ryan Calkins 1:01:47

And despite all the the failures and hiccups, I I can still sit back and say that I did my part and I may have some regrets, but mostly not regrets, because some of the situations just warranted action.

John Moore 1:02:04

Absolutely. It's unfortunate that I was the tool to do it, but and and to my point, if given another chance, I would do it all over again.

Ryan Calkins 1:02:17

Yeah, I probably would too. I'm a sucker.

John Moore 1:02:20

Well, but I would do it a little bit better and I could listen to my inner cell, yes. But I would do it again. Totally would.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:26

Totally would.

Ryan Calkins 1:02:30

So for the the listeners out there, are you helping people grow or are you protecting yourself from feeling like you failed them? And are you really putting people in position to be successful without feeling like you have to carry the the burden for them?

John Moore 1:02:48

Or the weight. And if you do feel that way, well, we need to pivot and we need to re-examine and we need to figure out how we can switch that around. Because the role of leadership is not a that. The role of leadership is much more than that. And I think once we get that understanding, you're able to be the best leaders that we know you can be. Until next week, leading ain't easy. But you don't have to do it alone.

Ryan Calkins 1:03:13

Thanks for tuning in to Leading Ain't Easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit reframerise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's reframerise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bus Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.