The Higher You Go, the Less You Actually Hear

Ryan Calkins and John Moore get into the leadership echo chamber; how it forms, why it's usually the leader's own doing, and what it costs when the people around you stop telling you the truth. If you've ever wondered whether your team is actually giving you real feedback or just telling you what you want to hear, this one's for you.

Most leaders assume that moving up means more information, more transparency, and more honest conversation. Ryan and John have both been around long enough to know it usually works the opposite way, and that the silence isn't always the team's fault.

In this episode, they get into:

• How the echo chamber forms — not through some grand conspiracy, but through small daily signals about what happens when someone disagrees or brings bad news
• John's story of raising every legitimate problem on a project in front of the big man — and getting a call before he made it to his car
• Ryan's experience building a 360 feedback system — going out of his way to make it genuinely anonymous, and still getting back answers that were too nice to be useful
• The difference between dissent and complaining — and why the way you bring something forward matters as much as what you're bringing
• What honest leadership actually looks like — not consensus, but staying open when someone pushes back, even when it slows things down

They close with three questions worth sitting with: Who in your life can actually tell you you're wrong? When was the last time someone changed your mind? And are people agreeing with you because they believe in you... or because you're the boss?

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

Subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 

Follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram for clips, prompts, and behind-the-scenes updates. 

If this episode resonated, please leave a review as it helps more leaders find us.

Transcript

Ryan Calkins 0:00

Leading Ain't Easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, John Moore. As we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't, the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy. And John and I were talking a little while ago, and we were we were saying, like the higher you go, the less information you actually end up getting. And you start to kind of reinforce yourself.

John Moore 1:14

And the funny part about that, there's truth to it, and then there's actually a little vagueness. So we you do get more information because you're on a leadership track, but the less communication, the less information you're getting is from your staff, which is quite interesting because you would think now we're in leadership that everything, you know, will be coming out, but actually you get less. You do.

Ryan Calkins 1:32

And and I mean, I guess I can see it. Like I always thought that, you know, that wouldn't be me because the relationships that I built with people as I moved up. But I don't know. I mean, I guess to some degree it it stays the same with certain individuals that you become close with, but for the most part, you realize that I don't even want to say people are necessarily more short with you. They just aren't as open. And, you know, especially when it comes to bad news or disagreeing with your thoughts. And I was always one of those people where I didn't let that affect me when it when I communicated with other people, uh, you know, higher ups. And I don't know, it it was a struggle because I had several bosses that commended me for being a person that would provide a dissenting opinion and not arguing for arguing's sake, but it just helps move things along. And I would look around and I like just see yes, people, you know? And it would drive me crazy because I'm sitting there in the meeting and I'm thinking, like, John, we just talked about this. Like, I know you agree with me, and you're in here saying, no, I'm 100% on board with your decision. I mean, assuming that is a scenario, not that you're actually that person.

John Moore 2:49

But it's it's very interesting because as you were talking, I was thinking about many a times I've been in the those capsule, the the the conference room we call capsulated, you know, rooms or whatever. And we're in those rooms, and you're absolutely right. I mean, we we we thought we were all on the same page, and then we've come to find out we're not. Or I bring my staff, maybe he might be a lead or supervisor, and then once I get him in front of the people and he's switching out. It's the most oddest thing that happens, but it is about trust and it is about I I wonder, I think I also wonder, Rever, does the staff member feel like, well, I don't know if John is gonna be on the same page? I don't know if we're gonna be in the same thought process. But what I thought is that we built relationships with your staff and that we do make sure that we're on the same page. And it sounds like sometimes we're just not. What do you think?

Ryan Calkins 3:39

I think a lot of times people are afraid to go against leadership or go against the general group because it can it can stall whatever it is that they're doing, or they look like a difficult employee. And I don't know, I disagree with it because I feel like you're doing a disservice by not speaking up if you have information that disagrees with or even opinion. Like you may have insight and experience that nobody else has. And if you don't bring it forward because you're too afraid to challenge the discussion in the room, I feel like not only is it not good for you, but it's also not good for the development of what you're talking about.

John Moore 4:19

Well, the unfortunate is that in your case, maybe that would be true. I find even it's I would be personally thinking that I always didn't have the ability to disagree, to be honest with you. Because if you disagree, especially in the environments I came up in, that was, you know, you were on a shit list. Yeah, that was it, you know, and no one ever forgave you for saying you dissented or, you know, I don't, you know, there's another point of view of looking at it. No, so you're right. I probably was one of those persons that just sit there and just either acquiesced or I didn't say anything at all because of the simple fact that you knew if you disagreed in front of the CEOs or whatever, that was it for you. So now maybe if it was myself and my boss, yes, I probably would say, hey, I think there is a different way we can do this. But if we were in that other room, unfortunately, that's how corporate did us. They trained you and you just you kind of you had to do what you have to do, or unfortunately, it was your job. Now, would I do that now? No. Because I know better, I have more wisdom, I have more uh resources than I've had before. But back then, most likely I was trained and went along with it.

Ryan Calkins 5:27

It's well, the I mean, the difficult part is I I don't know. I I I feel like I was a permanent fixture on on the shit list because I was never afraid to voice the opinion. And even when I was commended for speaking up, I felt like it wasn't real, you know? And I don't know how to explain it. I feel like there was always like an an underlying tension, even when it was like publicly, you know, we we appreciate you, you know, being a dissenting voice. And then I'm thinking, like, do you really? You know, or or uh, you know, it was like things where we would be in a group discussion and we're trying to go through everything, and then they'd be like, Brian, I I know you've got something to talk about with this, you know. And I'm like, well, I do. And it would the thing is, like, it it would further the discussion, you know, and if I would bring things in, then other people would come out, oh yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we always ended up in a better position. Or, or if it was a project or whatever it was. But the thing that I've never been able to do is just sit there and blindly be a yes man. And I that was my biggest struggle in the military was just going with the flow. Like I knew I couldn't stay in for 20 years and go career. It would have been nice to retire at 37, don't get me wrong. But I just I couldn't operate under it's just the way we do it. Well, why is it the way we do it? It it's just the way we do it. And then that's not good enough for me because there's always a way to improve something and and push people beyond what we're currently doing. And I know everybody in theory wants that, but in practice, I see so many people that publicly say, Oh, yeah, you know, change, change, change. And then quietly they go back and they're trying to sabotage or whatever, because people don't really want change. They're comfortable, they want to do what they're doing, and it's not, I don't know, it's just it drives me crazy.

John Moore 7:37

Well, I think the part that resonates with me that you said, which is that it's not real. Because first I was like, where is he going with it's not real? And then when you broke it down, it's not. It's not real because they really don't want to hear. Because I remember the reason that I stopped engaging and stopped dissenting is because I found that it wasn't to your point real. It wasn't sincere. They weren't really wanting to hear your voice, your opinion, your whatever, your dissent, right? They didn't really want to hear that. They wanted you to acquiesce. I remember very specifically working doing a contract. Thank you for bringing that one up, doing a contract job and totally effed, the whole project was effed up. It was just not done correctly. They wanted to make lemons out of or lemonade out of lemons, and it was just not working. I just remember this very distinctively. And I remember the big man coming, and and I remember raising my hand and saying the whole laundry list, hand of God, the whole laundry. We had no computers, we weren't getting proper information. I mean, I went down the whole laundry list, right? And I had a couple of echoes of, yeah, yeah. And he walked me out. If I'm lying, I'm flying. He walked me out and said, Oh, I'm great. I'm so glad you said those things, blah, blah, blah. Before I got to my car, I got a call. I was no longer welcomed on that project.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

It wasn't even the next day.

John Moore 9:05

It was not even the next day. Before I could walk from that auditorium to my car, I was done. That's quick. So that made me say, y'all about bullshit. You don't want to know. You you want to sit behind the scenes and act like nothing is wrong and just want people to just to go along with it. And it wasn't, it wasn't like these weren't things that couldn't be fixed. We needed laptops. How are you gonna access us to do you know training and we have nothing to actually play on? So we can get familiar with the content and we can get I just remember this so so vividly. And I just remember before I got to my car, I got a call from the agency.

Ryan Calkins 9:46

How'd you respond? Were you like, well, I guess you can be efficient when you want to be?

John Moore 9:50

No, I didn't. You know what? I was angry because again, the you know, the BS. You wanting to hear our feedback. I I'm the only one that and I don't know why I didn't read the room. I don't know, because no one else raised their hand. And then I I, like you, raised my hand, and that was the last time I did it.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Didn't do it ever since then.

Ryan Calkins 10:17

I wish I could say I never did it again. I think what I did was adapt the way that I brought things forward. Like when I was younger, like you said, there would be a laundry list of things, and I would just go down the list and identify everything that was wrong, but it would never was accompanied by a suggestion or how to improve it. So I had a sergeant that like really came down on me one day and just basically let me know like, why are you always like you're you're just negative? You make me not want to be around you. And he was a good friend of mine. And it was like, well shit, dude, I'm just trying to make us better, you know? And he's like, well, that it doesn't help because the other staff just hears the negativity, the negativity, the negativity. I'm like, damn, you're right. You know, I was being negative. And I tried to adjust that going forward and be more tactful in the way that I was delivering it because I just became too comfortable with people that I worked with. And that part never stopped. Like I always, like I mentioned it probably in every episode we've done, is that I've always focused on camaraderie and relationship building. And with me, that also comes with relaxed approaches at the workplace because I trust people and expect the, you know, the reciprocation, I guess. And it allows me to speak more freely. And I'm not gonna say that that I ever held back from speaking freely because it's just not who I am when I'm genuinely trying to do the right thing for the group, but I definitely tried to be more tactful in the way that I was presenting the message. And I always tried to make a suggestion of how we could improve it or try to, you know, at least get others involved in helping. And anytime that I could, I would try to, I don't know if I want to, you know, recruited, but I would definitely try to gauge other people's thoughts before going into a meeting. And that's the other thing I think that I adapted because there were too many times where I would talk to somebody and they would be on the same page, and then we would go in there and they would stay silent. I would just look like an asshole by myself. So what I tried to do was not, I and we talked about this before where the guy was like, oh, well, that was John's thoughts. And you're like, what? You know, but it it was more trying to get other people to also discuss because the thing that used to drive me crazy is if you and I were together and we were talking and we were bitching and complaining, I would go in, say something, you would stay silent after the meeting, you'd be like, Man, I can't believe they're sticking there. And da-da-da. I'm like, so now your your voice of of dissension is back, like, great job uh helping me, helping me fight.

John Moore 13:01

But I think that that, and which which was one of my things too, was having the rah-rahs before, and then when you get in, no rah-rah, no support, or you're the first one, then people come behind. And I just learned from that. I just really, really learned that I can't be the voice for everybody. And because the people won't stand up for you. And I tell you that, last time I did it was a time that I will never forget, never would I ever forget. And I remember the people coming, even I saw them like in other areas years later, and they were like, you know, I really appreciate you speaking up. And I said, Yeah, I really, I was saying to myself, I really wish you would have spoken for me, I would have had my job. But, you know, that's what we get sometimes too, is you know, you do that. But then, you know, you hopefully get blessed in other ways where you get financially blessed because you go into other, other fields. But it's a sad feeling when companies make those statements about, you know, we want you to uh be free. We want you to, you know, push back and, you know, give ideas. Even they say it now to these young people that are coming up, the millennials that are coming in, oh, we we want that. And then behind the scenes, they're like, get rid of them. They're they're they're messing up the they're doing it because really people don't necessarily want that. I don't know if it's in the delivery, I don't know if it's in the change, because that's in one of our topics talking about, you know, does this person feel like that you know it already? So they, I mean, I don't know which it is, but to you had a very valid point, which is that it's not real based, but what they're saying is just not real. They don't want to hear it. They don't want to hear it. And it's not about what you only about what your your whole heart said about you're always being negative. It's about the narrative is different than the narrative in which they want to hear. That's it. Hands down, that's what it is. Because even though you might have come across negative, I bet you some money, there was truth in everything you were saying. But it wasn't meeting the narrative that they want it to be. You know, this whole, especially being in that world, you know, that world is kind of ooh. So it's what, of course, it's gonna be like, we want everyone to be on board, we want everybody ready to go kill people, blah, blah, blah, being funny and facetious. But they want that kind of all of us on the same kind of thing. Same with football, same with anything that's a men group kind of thing. It's just that same kind of approach, but you hit it right on the spot, it really isn't, it's not real. No, right on the spot, it's not real.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

The I don't know.

Ryan Calkins 15:34

I I I mentioned before about when when I take on new jobs and new tasks, it it's trying to find the people with with the influence and the knowledge, the ones that have been there the longest, and the and the and the people that everybody else kind of of gravitate towards. And the reason I didn't really break it down then, but the reason I always went to the the longest tenured people is because they've seen everything. They know what is safe to say, what isn't safe to say, what works, what doesn't, like how leadership, I mean a lot of them are leaders because they're they're just tenured by default. But it's really they have so much knowledge and observation of this workplace that you know, people come in like me when I was younger. It's like, oh, well, they haven't seen me yet, you know, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna change this place, you know. And if they don't want to change, they're not gonna change. And that was one of the biggest things of adapting was talking to the people that have been there the longest, really trying to figure out what the problems were, what the existing like issues that have carried over what they've tried, what has failed. So when you do discuss things, it's not, oh, well, you know, John's been here 20 years and he told me da-da-da-like throwing you under the bus. But it's having some frame of reference and knowledge to say, look, I know you guys have tried this, this, and this, and it failed because of this, this, and this. But what if we tried this approach and it's trying to bring new ideas based on historics that actually happen? Because at least with that, I have found that then people start to say, yeah, that's right. I was here for that. I I did see what happened, you know, and then the conversation, at least for me, has been a little more fruitful when I can uh apply like direct context to kind of uh situational issues.

John Moore 17:30

And and I agree, I agree. I I'm still so stuck on this. You got me stuck on this real thing. It's just it makes me think about the sincerity of it all, to be honest with you. You know, even with the examples that you're giving, we can we can get to the point of having the point of referencing, you know, this is what we're seeing, because I've been there, done that too, and seeing and wanting to change and being able to reference your your cohorts that have been there for tenured years and and what they tried and all that good stuff. And hey, no, they haven't met me, I can come in and do it. But sometimes people want status quo. And it's like, but why? Why would you want status quo? Why would you want you you complain, and this is this is always in my pet peeve. You complain, you complain about how it runs, how unorganized it runs, how you have these ideas, blah, blah, blah. And then when a person comes in, oh, you're changing everything. We we didn't know you're gonna do it so quickly.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

They're making enough to get by.

John Moore 18:28

It just amazes me. You know, you you'd be amazed as to what is the real point of uh when people want change and how do they want it. Uh and I think they really want it at their pace, at their directive. You have some uh tenured folks that don't want the change because it disrupts, you know, their whole plan of objective of what they're going to be doing and how, you know, maybe it's maybe it's their retirement and that this is their track and this is how they're gonna do it. It's amazing. You just gotta, you gotta just kind of know your, you gotta know your balances. And I think what I also learned was because I've learned a couple of things from unfortunately trial and error, that again, not only people aren't really wanting the feedback, but people aren't really being honest about what's actually happening because they really don't want to, they don't want to acknowledge the dysfunction. They don't want to acknowledge what's really, really wrong. And what's really wrong has something to do with them too. What do you think about that? I see you respond, and what do you think?

Ryan Calkins 19:30

I as you were talking about that, I was thinking about a small company that I worked for, and I was in charge of well, I don't know if I was in charge of it. I created a project and then was blessed to take the reins with it. And it was creating a feedback system where we didn't have anything. We had an annual review as far back as ownership could remember, which was, you know, basically three months, and that's how bonuses were decided and divvyed out. And I didn't think it was fair to everybody that worked there to work the entire year and not really know where you are until the very end, and you get what you get. So part of it was creating a regular feedback system where I had quarterly reviews. There were, you know, weekly check, not full on weekly check-ins, but just a five-minute talk, you know, hey, John, you need anything? Da-da-da-da-da. And things started to pick up and the team building and and trust was really, really working. And I introduced the idea of 360 feedback and had everybody fill it out because ownership never heard anything. They had no idea, but I was the person in charge of it. So I read everybody's stuff because I was summarizing it for each leader that had to review their staff, and I was giving them a report of what everybody had written. And it's just reading some of the responses, it was like I know for a fact you dislike this manager because you have told me 20 different things on what they need to improve and where they failed. And then you read it, and I'm like, okay. So, you know, it all basically all of the negative has been pulled out. And then it's like, oh, well, you know, John should really focus on fully reviewing a document before it's sent to a client. And I'm like, okay. Not all of the the real stuff. Yeah, the real stuff that you've been telling me, like the the stuff that actually matters. But I don't know. I I tried to encourage people to be honest. I let everybody know. So what the way that I tried to approach it, I don't know how they do it in in corporate. You you'll have a better idea of that. But the way that I did it is I read everybody's, and then I would tell everybody she's Straight up. Like I am not providing any names to anybody. And I didn't share anybody's 360 stuff with ownership or anybody else. I would take it, I would consolidate it, I would give a summary on a list of things to improve, things to do well, da da da. But it was all everybody's blended answers. So it was just a report for you to read. Like these are your John's strengths, these are John's weaknesses. But there was never a name attached to it. And people were still, I feel, afraid to be fully open. Some were, but I felt like the majority was just people being too nice.

John Moore 22:38

So I know you know of this word, retaliation. That's the reason why. I mean, everybody was afraid. They were afraid. They were afraid. And that's in our typical echo chamber, you know, that people unfortunately are afraid. Um, even when people say, oh, that, you know, it's anonymous, people know who who actually are, you know, the the who's surveying them. And especially if, for an example, when we would do it, we would have it where your staff would survey, let's say, you, you knew who was giving you this feedback. You knew who it was. So most likely it was more of that. But for me, I never coming into the group, I never, meaning to my staff, I never made them feel like, you know, you couldn't give me feedback. And even if it was harsh feedback or feedback I didn't care for, I still had to receive it, right? But I'm not gonna say that I didn't have feel some kind of way afterwards, because I'll be a liar, right? But did I do things to set them up and, you know, to put their job on the line of hell? No. But you know, there's a lot of people that would. And so that's probably why people didn't put those honest answers. They weren't, they weren't, you know, like you. You were very brave. You, you were brave, you know. And that's the sad part about when I think about 30 plus years of working in corporate America and not having being trained to be brave. Because let me tell you, I was, I was, I was a force to be reckoned with when I was not in management. When I got into management, I acquiesced. When I was a staff member, I was hell on wheels. I was, I was like you. I questioned everything. Why, why, why, why, why? Nobody wanted me on their team. Remember managers saying, I don't know how to approach you. And I was like, that's the best way you could ever be with me. But then when I'm going to management, it was like, nah, you can't be like that no more. You can't. You can't be that. You can't be that person. Then what I saw was I saw me in staff. I saw me in staff. I saw how people are so disgruntled and questioning everything and making the smallest thing a big problem. It's just like, y'all just you hate life, don't you? So then I can start understanding how my managers felt, right? And so that made me lesser of being that way and being more understanding and trying to find the balance, right? But that's probably why they didn't quit the true, the true answers.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

They were they weren't scared of retaliation. Yeah. I don't know. I mean that. I don't know how else I could have done it to like it was it was literally presented in a way that was completely anonymous.

Ryan Calkins 25:19

And I, you know, if there if there was something where if you had like, I don't know, a particular way of writing or talking, I would remove that and change the language. Okay. But but I would still use the message. So I I I I made it so you really watched it. Yeah. I really did. I I I wanted it to where you couldn't tell who had said what, but I wanted the message to be there and be clear of what the issues were. And the other way that I tried to make it open and and honest was everybody that had anything for me, I had them submit it to another manager because I didn't want to review what people were saying.

John Moore 25:56

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 25:57

But also when I got the the feedback back, I'm like, well, I was hoping for for honest feedback, but it, I mean, it was all nice. You're really good at this, you're really good at that. And I'm like, well, I appreciate that. But what I really want to know is where I can improve and and how I could be a better manager. And I felt like a lot of times that was lacking.

John Moore 26:18

But maybe you were doing good. Maybe you didn't. It wasn't any challenge feedback.

Ryan Calkins 26:23

Well, I'm also a self-hather, so.

John Moore 26:26

You can let that go. But maybe you were. Maybe you were a good. I mean, because some people, they're really good managers. Some people are very fair. People, some people, and then some people, again, you can't please everybody. They're gonna have something to say. No matter how good you are, they're gonna still. I don't like his cologne. I don't like that when he comes into the office, he says good morning to everybody. It's like, oh my goodness, really. It's what I mean.

Ryan Calkins 26:50

I mean, I could I could go on and on about that. Yeah, it's what it is. Well, the the thing is, it's like once something about somebody annoys you, or at least that person really starts to get under your skin, everything they do becomes noticeable that you didn't notice before.

John Moore 27:06

Yeah. This is this is a fact. This is a fact. What do you what do you think about when leaders are in leadership, right? They are they are moving up into the process, they come into the reality and they have that less often, like we were talking about, connection to their staff with the bad news, with the disagreements, with the concerns, with the ideas, they start to challenge. Why do you think that that comes up with people feel to being become full of feeling that they need to be more filtered? I kind of alluded to it. But why do you think when you come become a leader, I'm gonna rephrase, when you become a leader that you find that your staff is less wanting to talk about the bad news, the disagreements, the challenges. Why? Why do you think that's a why do you think that's a thing?

Ryan Calkins 27:50

I think for a lot of people well, okay, so I had everywhere I go, I I'm not the only one that has a dissenting voice. And like I said, it's never dissension for the for the sake of it. There's purpose, there's reasoning, it's trying to improve, and there's a tactful way to deliver it. And I still think it it is unappreciated sometimes. And the people that have had the strongest voices with me have always kept the strength in their voice hidden. They will vocalize it, but once they're told we are negative or there's any type of feedback that is unfavorable, I don't want to say they cower because it makes them sound weak, but they relinquish, basically. And then and they they they stop pressing. And I am just not a conformer. I know that makes me sound like you know, I'm not challenging to the point where it is disruptive or anything like that. It's just if no if if I don't say it, nobody will, and then we just move on. Um you were talking about people that that that step back. I I think a lot of times they become afraid for their job.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 29:17

Yep. And they just they feel like they're not going to get the promotion that they want, and blah, blah, blah. For me, it was always well, do I want to be promoted in a place that I don't have a voice and I don't feel like myself, and I don't feel like I'm actually contributing on the level that that I know that I can, and that I want to actually make this place a place that I want to be for the long haul. And I don't know, like maybe I should have been afraid for my job or other things. Um, I just I never did. Like for me, it was always, well, I'll get another job, you know. At least I went out the same way that I carry myself every single day. And I always tried to be real and be my not like, you know, when keeping it real goes wrong or whatever. But that's what it feels like sometimes, you know? Because when you end up out of a job for it, it's like, well, I know now that it wasn't the right place for me. Is there ever regret? I mean, in those situations, the only regret I've ever had is the loss of the paycheck.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Of course. But being out of those environments, like, it was a blessing.

John Moore 30:32

I think it's a privilege and a sense to be able to not worry about the job and be more focused on, and I'm not saying privilege like skin color privilege or culture privilege. I think it's a privilege and a positive to not have that thinking about job first, because and what you what I'm hearing you saying, I'm thinking about what's right and what's wrong first. I think that's great. But just everybody doesn't have that same privilege because a lot of people are thinking about the work thing first, right? Which is the unfortunate because you would think, like we said about it being real, that if somebody asks for, you know, real feedback or they're asking your opinion that you should be able to give it. Not when you give it that you're now on a shit list, excuse me. But now you're on the you know, you're on that list where, you know, you can't get promotions because they're gonna think about this, they're gonna think about that. It's just sad. And I and I believe that that's why it does change. I believe that's why the echo chamber changes because now you're in leadership. Now they're like, okay, I can't go to him about this. Now I I can't tell him that. Um, because you know, I I want to be a lead, I want to be the supervisor, I don't want to go on his bad list. And I think that that's unfair to the employee, but I also see why that could feel that way. I can see it both sides because I've been on both sides of it. Ben's on both sides.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 31:56

No, I I guess I I don't disagree with the idea of privilege. I mean, I I feel like a lot of times in situations like that, you can be privileged where you have enough money to get by in the event that you get fired. And I wish I was that person. I sometimes I think I'm just stupid. Like, yeah, I'll I'll put doing the right thing ahead. Like, I didn't come for money. I had to earn everything to get there. And I, you know, when I felt like I finally made it and dug my way out was when I could fill up my gas tank. And I didn't have to worry about it. Like it was always five dollars at a time just to get me to the to the next time, you know. And when I could walk in, put a card in, fill up my tank, and drive off. I felt I was like, I mean, not that I'm I'm rich or wealthy. It was just I don't have to worry about where I'm gonna get money to get my next $5 worth of gas.

John Moore 32:56

No, I hear you. I hear you. And I but I really don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's just that again, you have some people who are very spirited. I was. You have some people who, you know, I mean, the only reason why I changed is because I I started to see what I saw. Because I know I was very spirited. I know it. I have a I had a boss that literally called me. I had moved from the East Coast and I've been here for a number of years, and he picked up the phone because he got my number some kind of way, and he was like, John, you remember who I am? I was like, and he's like, Yeah, I'm the one, you remember, and he was like, I was like, yeah, yeah. He's like, I remember you. You you were you were rough, you were rough. And I was, I was. I wasn't, I it took nothing off of anybody. But then you get in a leadership and it's a whole different playing field. Whole different playing field. You just can't. You can't be the same, which is which makes total sense, right? But then you also thought you had a little bit more sway and a little bit more vocal ability to be able to say what you think or say what you mean. You saw others do it, you thought you could do the same. You remember what Amy was saying? You couldn't do it. You can't. You don't always have that privilege to do it. So if it's not the privilege from the standpoint of having the job or believing what's always right, sometimes it's always about somebody putting us in our place, too.

Ryan Calkins 34:14

You still haven't seen Office Space, have you?

John Moore 34:17

No, haven't seen it yet.

Ryan Calkins 34:18

All right. We'll revisit it when you do.

John Moore 34:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta you're gonna tell me specifically the episode and I'll go and find it. Or is it just it's a movie. But is it a series? Oh, because they give a series office space too, don't they?

Ryan Calkins 34:28

Did they create a series? I thought they I thought that's the original movie. It's it's by uh Mike Judge, who created Beavis and Butthead.

John Moore 34:35

I gotta go look for it then. Office space, too funny.

Ryan Calkins 34:38

But revisiting kind of the the idea of the echo chamber and how leaders can get stuck in there, a lot of times it isn't I don't think it's ever intentionally created, but I think a lot of times it is the leader that creates it without even knowing that they are. And it's by reactions to how information is presented to them, you know? So if somebody disagrees, it's well, are you curious why they're disagreeing, or are you immediately finding a way to shut them down and prove why they're wrong? Or if somebody brings bad news, are you receptive to that bad news, or are you getting frustrated and trying to clap back at somebody? And I think the way that you react really allows people to become more comfortable in what they share and continue to share at the at the level that they do.

John Moore 35:28

And I think what makes that change from my level of experience is the individual staff member. Because you know you have staff members that are just trying to go at any and everything. They don't have any. I mean, I remember this distinctively. I had made a kind of a blanketed statement. I said if you have feedback or if you have an idea, or if you have a suggestion or something like that, it was more or less come with a solution. Don't just put something out there, don't put a complaint out there, come with solutions. Because you would have people that would, again, gripe about any and everything, and there was no solution. It was just a griping session. And I really want to say it the other way because that's what it was too. But my my resolve was don't just come with the gripes, come with solution. And that's how I would really alleviate that. Because it was like if you don't have a solution, and I literally, they'll say, no, no, no, it's wrong. So also what's the solution? I don't know what the solution is. You're the manager, but you're bringing up this bringing up, you know, something that you feel is valuable. What's the solution? You know, because honestly, we don't know everything as leadership, but at the same time, you have people who are just griping just to gripe because they just feel like it. Well, give me a solution. And maybe that solution could be something that we can use. And to be honest with you, there were occasions where I was able to use that solution and we were able to fix problems. But in some cases, it was just a session where people were complaining.

Ryan Calkins 36:50

But even when you're talking about the griping, I mean, there's a way to, even if you don't have a solution, there's a way to bring a problem to the table to discuss it, where it isn't just bitching and moaning. I guess so, going back to this whole conversation of where we started, the issues that I personally had, I don't want to say dissenting like the example you're providing, where you're just the person constantly complaining and trying to rally others to your cause. But it was a a it was more challenging, I guess, than dissenting. Challenging people to think a different way or to think about something else on how we could how we could improve.

John Moore 37:31

And we got that. I totally get it. And I think that those are healthy indications of coming outside the box, implementing a why scenario so that people can question and say, why do we do? I remember I had gotten that in my spirit about, you know, uh questioning the why. And it was more of working with young people or working with new hires because I wanted them to understand how they are so important to the big flow of everything. So I'm training them, bringing them through the whole scenario, and I wanted them to define the why. And then we went, what do you mean define the why? Why are you so important to the organization? And that made them be a part of it. And that also created dialogue that also created an understanding of their workflows and all these wonderful things and why they are more than just the cog in the wheel. All right. They are the cog in the wheel. And without this cog, you know, what could actually happen? So I don't think that there's ever really a problem with, you know, use, you know, or you using you as an example of challenging someone with good challenging ways or solutions or bringing up a healthy debate. I don't think there's ever anything wrong with that. As long as it has a true and sincere purpose, right? You have some people, again, that just do it just for the hell of it. You have some people who like to stir the pot, have it burn off, have it, you know, shaking and rocking and rolling. And then after it does all of this, they're gone. And that's real people too. And I think over the years, I've just learned that, you know, those are different habits, and you gotta nip it in the butt because that type of venom, or forgive me for saying poison, can just go rapidly throughout your team, and then there you go, you're you're done. And I've been there done that.

Ryan Calkins 39:11

Oh, you're right. And going back to to I I had mentioned the piece about people kind of shaping the way that their their echo chamber is kind of created by how they respond to things, but it's also other people see what's rewarded and how they respond to other people. So it just kind of helps to I meant to touch on that too before we agree with you.

John Moore 39:36

Oh, no, you're fine. You know, I love the way we go off. It's fine. I I think that that's good too, but then does the reward bring favoritism based upon the responses, right? You know what I'm saying? So it's like I'm gonna only see these things because I know I'm gonna get rewarded. I don't know. I mean, that does happen.

Ryan Calkins 39:55

I feel like no matter what you do, there's always some level of favoritism. I I think or or perceived, or how about this, perceived favoritism. Well, perceived or not, like I do think that there is a level of favoritism. Like you you just like certain people more than you like others. And I think the trouble is I don't even know if it's in, I mean, it's probably in rewards too. I I've been pretty even there, but I I think it's I want to say it's more in how you punish or or or come down on people. And if I am coming down on you harder than this guy over here who I like more, it I feel like the consequences of actions and what people see from that typically are a lot worse than the rewards, unless it's something, you know, big, like this guy got a $5 Starbucks card and I sent you to Hawaii, you know?

John Moore 40:53

Exactly. Exactly. But I'm thinking that back to the favoritism. And I think you're right. Because as you said it, I think you're right. There's some people you really enjoy working with because they're work ethic, they're on time, they're rocking and rolling, there's not always a complaint, there's not always I was late because blah, blah, blah. I can go on. So yeah, I think that there could be that. And I think this and I think it's an innate thing. You we just, it just happens. Like, you know, I really like working with so on. So I I can always depend on her to do blah, blah, blah, right? You can fill in the blank. And then there's the other. There's like, I'm just waiting for the excuse. What is it now? You know, I remember, I remember having staff members like that. I was like, ooh, Lord. It's like, goodness, every time you turn around, it was something else. It was something else, it was something else. You can kind of see where their lifeblood was gonna go with this company because of, you know, how it was. It's just, it's just a it's a bag. You never know what you're gonna get. You never know what you're gonna get, like a box of chocolates. You never know. Some are gonna have creams in them, some are gonna have coconut, uh, it's gonna have all these different flavors. I think we just have to manage them as they are and figure out what, you know, where you're where your boundings are. Is everybody gonna survive? No. You know, some people are gonna manage their own selves out. Some people are gonna elevate themselves to the next level in leadership. Some people are gonna stay steady as they like it to be. That's just the course of life.

Ryan Calkins 42:21

No, no, I I don't know. I I I also want to, I guess, just clarify that I I don't think either of us are saying that the the goal should be consensus. Like leadership is still going to be responsible for for making tough calls and disagreements shouldn't necessarily change your decision. It's it's more a matter of being open to the discussion and not shutting it down immediately or getting upset that somebody isn't immediately on board with what you're bringing to the table.

John Moore 42:50

I 100% agree. And that comes in time. Now, just to be honest with you, if it's a young leader, yes, they could very well, because they don't know, they have not gotten the experience, they could take it as a personal attack. They brought an idea to the table, everyone's against the idea, they can think it's a personal attack on them. That's very possible. But as you grow into your leadership, you will identify that that is normal, right? That those things will occur. Everyone is not gonna agree with you, but it's the way we deliver things, okay? It's all based on our delivery, it's based upon what we deliver, how we deliver, what the outcome is gonna be, and all those wonderful things to it as well. Just to get the buy-in. Sometimes we we're gonna have to figure out how do we get people on board. And we will have to figure that out as leaders. And that's what makes a good leader, too. To want to figure out how do I get you on board.

Ryan Calkins 43:43

Yeah, no, I agree. I I think that another key component of a solid leader is is a leader that surrounds themselves with people that have enough care to disagree. And I worked for a small company. Where there was a CEO that just surrounded himself with yes men and yes women, yes, yes people. And they it was it was just hard to watch because it's like, okay, you'd rather just have all these people blindly go with what you want to go than have any pushback whatsoever on an idea that could be great, but it could also be not. You know, why not discuss it a little bit before just saying, oh yeah, let's let's do it.

John Moore 44:31

Well, and and coming from a corporate standpoint, because that's their intent. Their intent is to be that um, I don't know if you want to call it a defeater of, but leadership, I've always seen them acquiesce to the CEOs. You know, whatever they said. I remember being in the in in that that that bubble conference room, and uh he's saying we got to get rid of a number. He said, like a number, it was a hundred thousand, whatever it was, and that number equated to bodies, human beings, heads. And I remember him saying that, and I was just like, dang, they not even, they're not even breaking this sucker down to think about people's lives. He's just thinking about we need to get rid of a million dollars, or we need to get rid of a hundred thousand dollars, or whatever it is, and that's people you're laying off. And you know what the people did? Okay, um, who's on your team that's that's just doing blah, blah, blah. I mean, just boom, boom, boom, to figure it out. Nobody's saying what I just said. No one is saying, oh, this is Christmas. You're gonna lay people off right before Christmas. They did exactly what they were told. And that has been corporate for a long time. And really, in one breath, you get it because that's what it is. You know, he's your CEO, you get it. And to your point, then you have a CEO that says, No, I want feedback, I want to hear what you have to say. Those are very small and few that sincerely want to hear what you gotta say.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

I was at one company.

Ryan Calkins 46:01

I think it was almost six years, and two or three years in a row, they fired half the managers at the end of the year, right before Christmas, and then rehired, I th that's I want to say it was March, February or March. They rehired, you know, cheaper people in into those positions. So they got rid of all of that knowledge. And it was a big company. It's not like they were, they were hurting for it.

John Moore 46:30

I don't understand that kind of uh that kind of that transaction. I really don't. I know of a couple of companies, I know we're a huge international company that does it right now, where they'll lay off a huge amount of their sales team and then they'll rehire a whole new sales team. It's like, wow, you know, why would you even want to be a salesperson for that for that company? It's like you wipe them out, and I don't even think they make a year and they'll wipe them out. And it's like, oh, new sales team. New sales team is like, dang. So it's kind of what the company's culture has become. They don't have that whole sense of what we had back in the 80s where you really thought about your staff and you thought about holidays, you thought about when you had to terminate people, you know, giving them good severances. None of that's there. They're trying to find the most cheapest and the most cost-effective way to get rid of. Like right now, people are all, you know, up and up in arms about, oh, I have unlimited PTO. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you have unlimited PTO. Because when we, because when they fire you, they owe you nothing. Where maybe severance. Now, back in the day, where they used to pay you, you occurred, you occurred PTO and things like that or vacations or whatever, right? And you owe, you'll be owed like $5,000, 10. If you never took it, you'll be owed all that money because you literally work for it. They don't do that anymore because they're like, we're spending more money when we're letting them go than when we had them. I mean, so now people are just in, out, in, out. Everybody's, oh, we got unlimited PTO. I'm like, oh, yeah. That's a plan right there.

Ryan Calkins 48:02

No, even the ones that don't get fired, they they end up working more than if they had their their PTO to take.

John Moore 48:10

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's sad. It really is sad. I tell you. But this is, you know, this is the world that we live in. And and when we look at leadership, leadership has metamorphosed into so many different ways. And it's been a pretzel, it's been a turkey, it's been a ham, it's been everything over these years. And I think that's kind of the thing it's supposed to be, to be honest with you. Because, you know, leadership changes per decade, per culture. It it it's just this change. The way people were doing things in the 60s is not the way we're doing things now. Just change.

Ryan Calkins 48:44

So do you do you agree that that mature leaders intentionally create friction?

John Moore 48:52

Depending on the leader. I was gonna say something, I stopped. Depending on a leader. Because you have some leaders that do like chaos. They do like that. You unfortunately, they do like people to be at at odds. They do like people to be on their side. Um, I've seen it with my own eyes. I I know that they like that. So they keep stuff going. You have that, and you have some people that know they don't, because that's not, that's not where they that's not what they were uh brought up from. That's not where they were trained to be leaders to be that way. They were peacemakers. They were, how do we come to compromises? They were, you know, that. But I do believe, yes, depending on the leader, yes, you have leaders that do do that.

Ryan Calkins 49:29

You know, I wasn't even I wasn't even considering the the extreme friction and the and the chaos makers, because I've worked for them too. I all I meant was I should have seen that. But I mean right there. I knew it. Well, what I meant for the friction is the the mature leader that can ask, you know, what am I missing? Or if you disagreed, what would you say? And it it's just the the the one that isn't afraid to go against your own thought pattern and and reward honesty, even when it slows things down or becomes uncomfortable. Because at least for me, like protecting the truth is leadership. And I think that doing like what did Amy say last week?

John Moore 50:10

Doing the right thing or yeah, she says something real powerful, but I can't remember. Amy, Amy, tell us what you say.

Ryan Calkins 50:17

She says she always does the right thing. Son of a we'll have to get it. We're back because that's just how impactful it was. But I mean, that the concept is there, the idea is there, and I feel like it's something that you and I both follow.

John Moore 50:30

I want to go back to that. Yes, when you asked me the question, yes, I went all the way to the left, you're right. But there there is that person, but you're right. I think the the when you re rephrase the question to me, the first thing that came to mind was I think what makes it more palatable is how it is done, how the delivery is done, right? Because again, we're all humans. And if you come at a person with a sense of an attack or accusatory or whatever, of course you may have a person that's gonna be on defense with your response. And they're not gonna reward you because they're gonna think you're trying to, you know, put them on the spot for whatever purposes, right? So you may have some people that don't necessarily respond that way. And you have some people, maybe like yourself, that's very open to the fact of any approach you may make. You're just glad you know you had the honesty. So I think there are people to answer your question, yes, that are out there that are open and receptive to truth and to honesty. And I think that they should be rewarded. But I also do think that we train our staff to have a form of decorum and have a form of how we want to approach things so that we can be heard. I mean, that can also limit something that's very important is your delivery. If your delivery sucks out loud, I'm tone deaf. I mean, it's like it's not like Charlie Brown's uh teacher. But if it's you know delivered in a way that it's conscientious, it's thoughtful, it's it's it's about topic. Yeah, I gotta listen. Because you're right on point. You're right on topic. You know what I'm saying? So I I I I agree. I think that there, I think there are people out there. I think they're more than we think that they are.

Ryan Calkins 52:09

She said doing the thing right or doing the right thing. Yeah, I think that's what it was. Yeah.

John Moore 52:15

Just yes, yes, yes, yes.

Ryan Calkins 52:16

Okay.

John Moore 52:16

Yes. That's what it was. I think that's what it was. Yes. It was very good.

Ryan Calkins 52:19

If it wasn't, it it's damn close to what it was.

John Moore 52:22

Yes, yeah. It was, it was, it sounds that sounds like it because it was very profound. So thank you. Thank you for trying to bring that back up.

Ryan Calkins 52:28

Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I think the whole key to to the episode today is really making sure that you are doing the the right things and knowing that the right thing is more important than whatever ego you're bringing into the room with the idea of I'm bringing this thing, it has to be this way.

John Moore 52:50

And then I think my input would be is piggybacking off it, Ryan. Yes, doing the right thing, but being mindful of how I deliver it. You know, so therefore I can be heard, that I can be received, that it will be heard and received with the intention of my purpose, right? And without any other intention. Because I think that's the motivation. If you're gonna be bringing some good news or bad news, it still depends on how it's delivered as to how it's received. Absolutely. Yeah. Excellent conversation. Love it.

Ryan Calkins 53:19

Yeah, and for uh our listeners, I I guess I just wanna ask a couple of questions. Who in your life can can tell you that you're wrong? And when was the last time someone changed your mind?

John Moore 53:30

Excellent. And how did you actually receive it and how was it delivered? And was the delivery the most important component to it, right? As to why you received what was said, right? So I think that's important too. Delivery accounts.

Ryan Calkins 53:43

And are people agreeing with you because they believe in you or because you're the boss?

SPEAKER_01 53:48

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 53:49

Good point.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

So until next time, leading ain't easy. But you don't have to do it alone.

Ryan Calkins 53:56

Thanks for tuning in to leading ain't easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit ReframeRise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's Reframerise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bus Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.