Who's Really to Blame When Employees Leave? (feat. Erny Epley)

A viral LinkedIn post claimed that if five employees leave within a year of your leadership, you're the problem. Ryan Calkins, John Moore, and returning show staple Erny Epley take that take apart, share real stories from their own careers, and get honest about what turnover actually tells you about a leader. For anyone who's ever taken someone leaving too personally... or not personally enough.

Ryan, John, and Erny (original co-host, back for the first time in a while) sit down with a LinkedIn post that's been making the rounds: if employees are leaving under your leadership, you're the failure. It's provocative. It's got some truth in it, but it lands in a place none of them can quite agree with.

What they get into:

• Where the post gets it right and where it goes off the rails — There are real situations where leadership drives people out. But bundling every departure into one blanket verdict ignores everything that's actually happening in organizations, including the people who leave because of good leadership that helped them grow past what the role could offer.
• The mindset that quietly makes you a worse leader — Ryan traces the early-career belief that every departure reflects on him back to real consequences: softening hard conversations, letting standards slide, keeping people happy in ways that actually made things worse for everyone.
• Three kinds of departures, three honest stories — The one you lost because of your own failure. The one you couldn't have kept no matter what. The one you should have let go sooner. 
• The trap of being liked — John on holding back accountability because he didn't want to be that manager, and how that always compounds the problem.
• What five people leaving in a year might actually mean — Sometimes turnover is a signal. Sometimes it's a clean-out. Sometimes it's just life. The question isn't the number, but rather what you do with the information.
• The real measure of good leadership is NOT whether people stay, but what they do when they leave.

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

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Transcript

Ryan Calkins 0:00

Leading ain't easy, the show that cuts through the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, John Moore, as we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't: the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivots, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy. Ernie Epley. Welcome back to the show, sir. Welcome, thank you.

Erny Epley 0:57

Thank you. Thank you.

Ryan Calkins 0:58

Today our topic is going to focus on who is responsible when employees leave. And the whole basis for today was we came across a LinkedIn post where somebody said, if you are firing the employees you hired, you're the failure, not them. Leaders should be held accountable for employee turnover. If you have a turnover rate of five employees let go or quit within a year of your leadership, you are the problem. Don't let poor leadership treat you like they have options. They don't, but you do.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Now, how do you guys feel about that uh that post?

John Moore 1:31

I let Arnie star first. Go for it.

Erny Epley 1:33

Thank you. Uh, and when I come across it, I I gotta look at all things like you should with social media posts uh through the lens of what feeling are they trying to elicit here? Because when you make a statement that's that polarizing or that sort of matter of fact, it seems like that's an emotional reaction. And there's nothing wrong with emotional reactions. I get emotional all the time. I I lead with emotion. Um, so first off, like trying to diagnose, okay, are you trying to elicit some kind of reaction out of me? Is this post-war engagement, right? So without going too far and too deep into that, much more than that, uh there the concept alone, as is the case with most takes on things, with most opinions, there is some truth in there, right? But the conclusion where you landed at was really wild for me, because as we'll get into later on in the discussion, there is many, many reasons why people leave their place of employment, and it's not always negative, right? We just tend to focus on the negative. Um, there she is right to some degree. That this person, I believe, was a female, uh, regardless, that they were right to some degree. Sometimes it is leadership, sometimes it is bad management. I've left because of bad management, but the majority of the places when it's been time for me to move on has been positive. And it had nothing to do necessarily with with the leadership that was in place. So I guess the my first reaction was uh, wow, let's all take a step here. Let's take a moment, take a deep breath. Uh, first off, you're not gonna get the reaction. I'm not gonna engage with some crazy comment because I'm a leader here, you know, and and I do take that kind of personal sometimes when when folks want to uh put out these blanket statements about leadership. And and and there is, like I said, there's there's different degrees of truth in there. There is a part that as leaders, we should take responsibility at some level uh for for for people leaving if it's completely negative, but if they're going on for a better opportunity, then that's a reflection on my good leadership. I would counter that with that. So um, yeah, that was that's that's sort of my first initial reaction was okay, why are you trying to make me mad? Or what are you trying to elicit here? And then let's listen, let's dig into the meat and potatoes of this and really kind of that's why I wanted to talk to you two, is get your takes on it to really see what your sort of of what your initial reaction was.

John Moore 4:00

For me, I immediately kind of went and felt uh that it was a blanket statement that was incorrect because of having the number of years I've had in corporate America and seeing the diverse reasons as to why a person would leave, yes, you're absolutely correct. There are some components of it, it is true, but that is not for all. I mean, we we're talking about people with uh different mentalities, different cultural backgrounds, different everything. And their reasonings could not just be the poor leadership. It could be multitude of reasons and to bottle that all up into one. I thought that was very, I thought that it was very untrue, and I thought that it was very unfair because it's just not giving a true description as to what corporate America could very well be. Now, corporate America, of course, has changed a lot now, but from where I come from, it wasn't like that. It wasn't uh where you would just use a blanketed statement like that. It was more uh diverse reasons as to why that could be the problem, why that could be the issue.

Erny Epley 5:01

One thing, oh sorry, man, I I I I caught you. Uh but one thing I did want to add was um when when I speak to fellow leaders, right, in any field, doesn't have to be in school business, what I happen to be part of. When I talk to folks like yourselves, when I talk to other people, and when these things come up and the uh the focus wants to be on blaming leadership, uh what I've what I've seen is when we actually diagnose and say, okay, where is this coming from? Who's the source of this? My first question uh uh so something I've developed is okay, well, how many people have you led? I want to I want to hear your leadership experience. I want to hear where you're coming from. Because if you if if you've arrived at this polarizing of a take, surely you have some leadership experience, right? What's the biggest department you've led? What's what's been your experience? And more often than not, the overwhelmingly negative view towards leadership comes from positions of people who've never led an effing thing in their life. Like, you know, so uh at some point there really is a uh value to saying, hey, if you haven't been here, I don't know how much I want to hear from you. You know what I mean? Not that I don't want to hear from you as far as what's going on, let me how can I help? But I don't want to hear this negativity BS that isn't helping anybody. Like it seems like you're doing more disservice and tearing down the morale of where you're at if you're just constantly attacking every single thing that you don't agree with, with with leadership. You don't have to agree with this, but hopefully you could we come to a semblance of okay, this is for the common goal. I could set my personal ego aside and my personal opinion aside for the greater good. Very good.

John Moore 6:53

Ryan, what do you think?

Ryan Calkins 6:55

No, so what I was gonna say is is kind of where Ernie went with it, where early in my career, before I really stepped up into leadership roles myself, um, it was that whole mindset of people don't leave jobs, they leave managers. And, you know, I took that with me and I had a lot of shitty managers. And it did make me want to leave. And the further I went in my career, sometimes I had great managers that were just in really bad environments and they were handicapped by their superiors or the way that the environment was. And it's like you end up leaving, but it's not because of the manager that you favored or really wanted to stay with, or just different situations that warrant you leaving. But going back to myself and my own experience, I took that mindset as I went up. So when somebody would leave, I would take it as a personal failure. Like, what could I have done better? Like, how could I have kept this person that I really wanted to stay? And I struggled with it for a while until I was comfortable enough to ask somebody, you know, like, hey, why are you leaving? You know, if they were willing to share. And every single time, you know, it had nothing to do with me. It was either they didn't want to do the job anymore or the industry anymore, or there was just a better opportunity, or, or whatever the issue was. And I think over time, it's like, okay, no matter what I did or could have done, this person was going to move on. They needed some other area to grow or whatever it was. And I was able to get over my own uh sense of failure by just realizing that not every single situation should be taken, you know, with with blame. But I think it's still good to reflect what could have been, you know, what and then and then with the ones that are willing to tell you what happened or or why, you know, if it's something within your control, you adapt for for you know the people that are still there and the ones that will come after. If it's something out of your control, I mean, I guess you still learn to adapt, but again, it's out of your control, so there's not much you can change.

Erny Epley 8:55

Building on what what you just said, Ryan, at this point in my career, I've if I was as you were talking, I was trying to put the number together, I would I would say venture close to well over a hundred people have been through my teams. Like I don't call them my departments or my this or I think it's we're all a team, right? So I've had hundreds of people in and out of my team and part of it. And what what I've come to, well, I've evolved to is when people want to have that approach of you, you don't, I don't need you, you need me. I I think that's a really incredibly selfish date because we both need each other. Like we can't, I can't do your job and you can't do my job respectfully. Right. So when it comes to, I just had this conversation the other day with an employee um who was just like, you know, I spend X amount of years at a place and I gotta move on. I got something else, I this, I that. And I think they were trying to elicit of a reaction from me of, oh no, please stay. And which that's never been my approach, I shouldn't say it's never, what I've evolved to, it's it's not my approach anymore. I'm not trying to hoard every single buddy. I, as a matter of fact, I tell people this in open meetings, in one-on-ones, hey, if this is not what where you're thriving, and this is not where you feel most uh useful, or if I can't give you what you need, by all means, go out there and get it. Like, like I don't want, I don't want somebody on my team who's just miserable, who who feels like I can't challenge them or that I can't give them an environment where they in which they can thrive. Um, I I always say, look, what I can offer is what I can offer. And I'm very open and and and upfront about that. Um, and you know, we we go through the list of what I can offer. And if I can't offer then you that, I don't want you to be miserable because I need somebody here that is going to enjoy what they do, feel feel very fulfilled with what they do, because speaking from personal experience, that's when I'm at my best, is whenever I feel that I'm truly part of something big and that what I'm doing really matters. So if I can't offer you that, I will write you, I will write you the best letter of recommendation. And by all means, go seek that, you know. Um, and and again, it doesn't always have to be negative. It could be that you've hit a glass ceiling in on part of my team and there is nowhere, you know. Um, so I mean encouraging growth is is something that I always try to lean towards and shift the narrative to where I'm not fulfilled, you got to do something about it. Well, I might not be able to give that to you. So, but I do want to give you the opportunity to go find it if you want to. I don't want to feel like you know you're trapped or anything. So, how do you manage that failure as a leader? Failure, so that's a failure on my part that I can't have 25 supervisor positions because everybody feels like they should be a supervisor, right? Not everybody, but people in that, and I only have one supervisor position and it's filled, and this person's doing an incredible job. So uh they're not going anywhere anytime soon. So if that's what your goal is, there are a lot of there's you know, thousands of districts in this state and even more, tens of thousands in this this nation. I mean, maybe a change of scenery or somewhere where you feel like you know there is an open spot, go for it. And I'm here to help you make that move and transition.

John Moore 12:06

And I and I also find it interesting when people, and it goes back to your previous step statement as well, Ernia, in reference to, you know, uh, have you done the work before you make a statement? Um, I find it it's interesting when people have an opinion about something that they don't have the level of experience with, right? Or haven't taken out the time. A lot of times people say, I could do what you I could do what you're doing. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Yeah, here, have at it.

John Moore 12:30

How successful you'll be, right? Not trying to set them up. I would just love to see how successful you'll be, right? Um, but the likeliness is you're looking from the outside in and you're not really understanding what it takes to get things done. I was talking to someone the other day and he's getting a new job, one of my clients, and he was like, Yeah, I'll decide depending on how the workload is, whether I'll, you know, take some work at home and all these different things. And it's like, you know, if you choose to do it, you choose to do it. But it's totally about the investment you want to do into your career. Um, it's not about the environment, it's about the investment you want in your career. So a lot of times people make statements and they really come from a place of um not really having the level of experience like they should, I believe.

Ryan Calkins 13:13

Agree, but I even the ones that that do have experience, what I've seen is social media is a lot of absolutes and rewards certainty, right? So if you can say a blanket statement that gets engagement going, that's how you attract people is by having engaging pieces, you know. So whether people push back or they agree with you or whatever, I don't know. I mean, actual leadership, anybody that's been in it knows that there's there's more nuance.

Erny Epley 13:41

But yeah, that was my point earlier I was making when I brought up the whole thing of like how many people have you led? Because uh most everybody that when this topic comes up, because this isn't the only sort of circle I've shared this post in, I've I've shared it with colleagues of mine that I work with um at the district where I'm employed, and and all of the most of it, uh let's say 99% of the reaction has shared with ours. Like, uh, I don't, I don't think so, you know, and and and we've all been in the sort of that same agreements. Like, this is so much more layered than that, and that's that's a that's a wild take to arrive at.

John Moore 14:16

And I think it's also not about proving that someone is right or wrong, too. I think it's it's about trying to find what is that experience and what is that narrative, where you're coming from, where, you know, what what is that really about? And going deeper instead of being so in the shallow waters and again making a blanket statement and saying this is what it is all. I think um, two, it it reminds me of reality TV. The motivation of reality TV is engagement. So the more crap I can put out, I'm gonna engage an audience that's going to engage with me. Um, and that's really real. If I if I'm putting out something that's, if it's not crap, or putting out something of something of massive interest or an experience, yeah, you're gonna get a lot of engagement there. So uh I think that's another purpose as to why sometimes people put things out there just to get that engagement, just to see.

Erny Epley 15:03

I I think another consideration that I think the entire team from leadership to the the other end of the organizational chart can I think it's value, there's value in understanding that the friction point of most relationships, at least in my experience, has been very ego-driven. So you hear that that term, hey, check your ego at the door a lot in the sports world and sports analogy, especially in football. Um, you know, there there has to be at some point, if it's going to work, a checking of that ego and an understanding am I arguing because I have an undying need to be right? Uh, what am I quote unquote fighting for here? And that's a question that I've had to ask myself and I constantly ask myself. And sometimes, I mean, full transparency here, there's times I'm about a quarter halfway in it, and I realize, you know what, I just want to be right. I'm not even sure what what we're arguing about anymore, what the the the whole thing is. And I'll give you an example is currently right now where I'm at, I have never had a more uh um solid foundation in the leadership position uh above me, right? The my immediate supervisor and the school superintendent, they have created over the course of the last year an environment where I believe those those folks, the 18 of us that are at my level at the director level, if we put in the proper amount, like if it you're gonna get out what you put in, right? And he's created an environment where I've just really thrived. I've said this publicly, I've said it privately, I have no problem saying that and giving this this these this leadership their flowers because they've they've really you know really knocked it out of the park. However, there are still times where things come up and I disagree with the course of action they're taking. I but I I don't I say my piece, of course, respectfully in a private uh in a professional environment, saying, hey, have we considered this? You know, and if they're I've said it, they've said, yep, we've considered it, moving on. I have the the faith in this leadership now to say, you know what, maybe they're making this decision based on knowledge that I'm not armed with and they can't share with me. So I have to to to I don't have to, but I choose to continue to put place my faith and trust in them because they haven't led me astray, right? They haven't, of course there's been missteps, of course there's been things that that have there's you're always gonna get that in leadership. No one's ever gonna be bad in a thousand, but having that faith in them and having like because they're the same way, they're leading with as much transparency as they can, right? And so I then try to emulate the same thing with my team saying, hey, look, there's things that I directions that I take this this team or directions or decisions that I make that that I hear from you, I hear you, you disagree. And if I was in your position, armed with your knowledge, I would disagree with too. However, I cannot be, I've been as transparent as I can. Some of these things that uh the knowledge that I'm armed with per se, I can't pass that along to you. You're just gonna have to trust me. And I'm hoping that I've over the course of these past four years, I've built that stock in equity in with this as a team. And most of the time, when when we're arrive at that, you know, sort of junction and friction point, the for the most part, my team understands, like, you know what, Ernie has been transparent, you know, and then I've and I'll call, and sometimes I have to call specific examples. Hey, remember back when we were here and I said, you know, XYZ, and this was the decision you guys didn't understand at the time. But however, looking back at it, hindsight being 2020, you now understand what I did. I'm asking you to place, you know, to to I'm asking you to to to allow me to dig into that stock a little bit to trust me in this same situation. And of course, it's not always gonna, you know, you're gonna have a thousand different results, but um you know, it it it it comes from building team and stock uh building stock and trust in your team.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

No, I agree. 100% should we do some story time? Yeah. I love your stories, right?

Ryan Calkins 19:11

Well, so I was kind of thinking like an idea where each of us can share an experience at a different stages or or or results of of somebody leaving. And kind of the the idea of of self-reflection on uh the one that I lost because of me, like the person that actually left because of you, if if you can think of one. The one that you couldn't have kept, no matter what you could have done or would have done, that person still was going to leave. And then I have one that is really on my mind for the one I should have let go sooner. But if anybody has one for the for the first and and second.

Erny Epley 19:53

Give me, give me, give me those first two again.

Ryan Calkins 19:56

The one I lost because of me. So someone who left where looking back, you could have led that person better. And it was essentially a a result of something that you did that that they left because of. The second one is the one that you couldn't have kept. Like no matter what you did, how great your leadership was, they were still going to leave for for whatever reason.

Erny Epley 20:15

I got something for that second one. I don't have the first, I have one for the last, but go ahead. Um, so I I recently the the supervisor before that was on my team, he was someone that I've known for about 10 years in the industry. And both of us, when I got to CHP in 2015, he was an individual who was a driver at that point. And he came in for a drive test, and right away there was something about him that I'm like, this this guy has the at least the charisma down to where he can get people to follow him. And that and you know, you just I saw the very raw potential that was there for a very effective leader. And I, you know, kind of kept it in mind, and and us being in the same industry in the same region of the state, our paths were constantly crossing. Um, when I got to my current place where I'm at now as director, uh, this person was ready to move up to supervisor. However, where he was at, he was hitting a glass ceiling. So the timing really worked out to for me to, hey, I'm gonna pitch a recruit to this guy because the supervisor I have now on my team, this she's this person's gonna be gone in about three months. They already, you know, let me know they were retiring. And so I was in the active recruiting phase, got him over. Uh, long story longer, he was fantastic. Um, there was, of course, a lot of uh of friction around a new supervisor, around a younger supervisor. Um, and I felt like there was a lot of very, very positive interactions and there was a positive relationship built on mentorship. And I knew, and I said it out loud to him and other folks that were uh you know close and part of our team same. you know, I'm not gonna have him long. You know, he he's got a trajectory that's you know um uh that's that's pointed north and it happened a lot quicker than I thought it would. And when when the time came and he comes to me and say hey Ernie this is open over here I feel like it's oh it's a lateral move meaning like same position but you know the I'll have the department by myself you know and I won't have a director over me. So I I feel like in in in some sense it was very positive. I I I was like I'm proud of him you know like hey yeah go do your thing um but I felt like I waited too long to to really start sinking in the mentorship aspect of what our relationship is and was at the time and there was a little a tan a tad bit of regret there because part of it if I'm looking back at it and you know being fully just you know uh transparent I was waiting for him to hit these hard spots to come in and say hey this is what you did wrong like this is what you could have done better blah blah blah whatever I feel like I could have been a lot more proactive during our time together to better prepare him because you know since then there's been conversations that we've had that that have been private so I won't give disclosed details but where I'm like I could have I could have prepared you better for that but I was you know caught up doing my own thing and and so that that would I think that was the little bit of regret where you know we had enough time to where I could have better prepared him for for those situations but I feel like I was waiting for them to happen. So I was being more reactive than proactive and so I guess that would be the one regret. But um you know I say all that to say you know do act now if you're in that position of of of a fortunate position a privileged position to be able to mentor somebody don't wait for don't wait on the reactive be proactive about your mentorship and your guidance and especially if you're in a situation where you know this person is you know as soon as this opportunity opens up they're gonna be on and you know on on the ascent which is fantastic um so yeah that would that would that would be the sort of my experience with the second one oh and I also sorry I wanted to say like I did want to say that he's knocking it out of the park this dude's killing it and he's gonna be a director could be associate soup one day that he's he's got that potential.

Ryan Calkins 24:28

So instead of instead of I so you kind of passively let him develop in the role and focused on the current rather than having him develop in the role but also trying to prepare him for for the next level.

Erny Epley 24:43

Exactly and what what I started doing what I felt like was a little too late was it's he had already given me it wasn't exactly two weeks it was like two months he's like hey in about six weeks this is going to happen you got about six weeks with me this is my start date over here and so I started seeing a little too late with well this would be an awesome thing to bring John Flanagan in on to say hey John this is something that you might run into in your role you know where you're going to here's how I handle it this is this is this is just my take on it you could make it yours make it John's that sort of thing but I I I did I felt like I just did that a little too late.

Ryan Calkins 25:20

And so when he got to his his new spot he would call me hey Aaron I'm I'm running into this what do I do and I'm like I should have told you why you were here but you know here's here's here's the fix for that or here's what I would so the the scenario where the the the one that I should have let go sooner and I was working with an analyst that that was under me and we formed a really you know tight relationship and he was always on my projects. We were helping push each other forward and he just had this sense that ownership like didn't want him there you know and I kept reassuring him like no they they do want you here you know you just got to shore up these things and I was constantly working with him and there were times where he was telling me like his anxiety and stress was rising and I'm like dude I've got you like don't worry about it. And I kept encouraging him to stay and improve certain areas that ownership was discussing. And I know that the only reason he stayed as long as he did was because of me. And you know I appreciated it but then when he finally like it it became so overwhelming that he ended up resigning um and didn't even have anything else lined up. It was just it was so much emotional weight on him that he felt he had to leave I was I don't know I was I was really you know bummed out because I I felt like more could have been done and I thought that he left prematurely um but I also can't speak for him. But at the end of the year during the the 360 feedback the person at the ownership level that he was worried about put in his accomplishments that that person left the company and I read it because I was the one that was responsible for all the 360 and I'm like wow are you fucking kidding me like this whole time like his his sense was right and I fell for the trap of believing this person was like no I'm not out to get him da da da and then I don't know it was just a a really bad situation where looking back I just I I feel horrible that it was even a thing you know and then even if that's what you thought the fact that you wrote it down as an accomplishment is just such a shit thing man. Yeah it's just toxic volumes it speaks volumes and I'm like he's one of my best friends and we you know we still talk but it's just I don't know it it still weighs on me a lot that that I I should have let him go sooner or encouraged him to apply for other things and just been I don't know I guess more of an advocate for helping get him somewhere else and and set versus having to feel the way that he felt at the end of his career there.

John Moore 28:23

And my let go sooner is a little more challenge. It's more of a person who should have been let go not because of what you just alluded to but because we tried and we tried and we tried and in all honesty it just never seemed to to work. The person that came in uh to the company stating that they knew how to do all these wonderful things I'm one as a firm believer in giving persons time to get acumented with new departments new culture new whatever so we kept kept giving the training we kept doing all of the wonderful things that we possibly could do to get them up to speed but unfortunately um I really believe that they were just biding their time they identified that this was not a good fit for them. So while they were uh being trained and going through all these different things and unfortunately starting to go through disciplinary actions they were actively looking for another job at the same time so where I wish I would have done it sooner was I should have done it because I've always been I know guys you uh out there in the in the leadership field you may not care for this but you know it's true my leadership has always said check them out within the first 90 days if they're not clicking if they're not rocking and rolling get rid of them and for me I never do I've always you know you gotta give 90 days is not enough time to really identify that you know this is going to be a good person. Six months yes you can you know decipher that but 90 days I'm not caught up in the HR loop. You know 90 days I can you know go ahead and and do you know unfortunately this is not a good fit. So we got past that period of time because I'm giving them more time and unfortunately it became the biggest scenario of unfortunately managing the personnel. And where my story ends on that is giving people opportunity after opportunity after opportunity to where those opportunities are not warranted and they're not appreciated and they're misused to be honest with you. And I mean we I believe in giving opportunity because when you're in a training director training is supposed to be a fun environment training is supposed to be an environment where you enjoy coming to work. The only stress that you have about training really is the scheduling and the traveling but the department itself should be oh we love it. That's the environment that I love to create but this person just didn't it didn't work out for them. So you have those times too where there's some challenges there but I do believe in to the point of what this young lady uh wrote in uh LinkedIn that I look at you know what can I do to make sure they have everything possible so they don't fail, right? Or they are not challenged or that they're better prepared for the role. And if I give you everything is on you to then in turn take that and make it work for you, right? And I do believe in making sure people know the goals, they know their priorities, they do know what they need to do to succeed. And again if you choose not to you know follow those in those directives well that's more on you than it is on anyone else because I believe in giving you the map the map of success not the map of failure not the traps we're here to make you successful. And a little bias it it it defeats the leadership if you're setting someone up to fail. Because that means it is blatantly showing that you've also you know been challenged in your own leadership. So that's why I disagree with that young lady because it's like that's a total fail on the fact of the leader if if that's the whole premise, you know, that's just not it. It's just not it.

Ryan Calkins 31:49

Just a quick tangent since you mentioned the the the first 90 days I think it's a topic that we can dedicate a show to because I especially with the first 90 days I think that the onus isn't on the employee. It's on the employer to provide the training because how you treat that first 90 days dictates how long it takes for that employee to to acclimate. And I've seen a lot of managers that shouldn't be in charge of employees that also delay uh their their skill building and really catching up.

John Moore 32:21

So that is what we'll come back to you're right and also um onboarding the whole component all of that but it's a it's a group effort to be honest with you it's HR it's leadership and it's employee it's those three pillars and it's and you're absolutely right I don't disagree at all.

Erny Epley 32:36

And I also think to your point 90 days I mean shit it's I'm gonna it's gonna be 60 days before I know what ends up at a new place you know and then I got 30 days to to prove to to earn my salt like oof I don't know like 90 days is a hell of a quick probation. I think six months sometimes is tough.

John Moore 32:54

But the thing of it is it's it's it makes when when my bosses would say that it makes sense but what it does is it makes you really really be in tune where you can't I know it sounds crazy you really can't focus on anything else you just stead focus on what are they doing? How are they doing it? Are they listening? Are they doing this? And it's almost to the point where you're like and you don't want to be that way but you're you're so focused on making sure that they're succeeding right but um that 90 days is is a real time frame because you do not get in the HR loop.

Ryan Calkins 33:26

Kind of going back a little bit to uh our our topic for the day and I I just wanted to I feel like one of one of the pitfalls that leaders can can fall into when like early in my career when I when I took people leaving personally like the whole concept of people don't leave organizations, they leave people I think you you start to get a little bit relaxed in in your standards because you don't want to be off putting or set somebody in motion to to where they leave and it becomes easier to let simple conversations go that you should be having and you start to let the line move a little bit instead of enforcing procedures and it just becomes easier to keep people happy out of fear that they might leave but then it starts to make things worse because it's by you trying to keep everybody happy you're really not keeping anybody happy and really it's just the environment that starts to get you know a little bit out of whack. No, you said go ahead go.

Erny Epley 34:36

No I'm just saying the the only thing I had to add to that is it might that's a temporary band-aid for a a much much deeper issue that if the more you avoid it the more it's gonna just fester and get worse. So yeah like you you have to you have to hit those things head on as uncomfortable as they are that's why you're the leader.

John Moore 34:56

This is true and it's it's funny because one of the stories I wanted to say but I changed to go to another one was a person who was a contractor and was so used to it their own schedule and not being on time and going lunch and coming back all these long hours and I was just like all right don't say anything you don't want to be you know that manager. And it just continued to persist and it continued to persist and it was like wow you know and you would hint to the fact of you know you got to be here on time. And so it you're right if you don't nip it in the butt immediately it's like you you you venture to go into a different direction so which is sometimes fearful in leadership because it talks to well how do I how do I look how am I coming across am I coming across as uh that kind of boss and all those things and and culturally you don't want to be that but also at the same time you have to make sure you manage your staff and I and and and leaning into policies and procedures that is the the the most foundated thing to leverage is that so it's not a personal thing is what our company's demand is and what you know we need to stand for. And I think that that's more of what we should do versus taking it being personal, use that as a tool to be able to manage your staff better too is hey this is our policies we got to be here on time you got to be here at eight o'clock you got to be at lunch an hour you know you got to you know whatever that is and so that therefore when you unfortunately have to write them up or do a disciplinary action they know what they're being written up for because they know our policies.

Erny Epley 36:24

Yeah and we've talked about it before this isn't this isn't this shouldn't surprise you.

John Moore 36:28

Exactly yeah exactly and you know I think sometimes we get more caught up in the liking component and being popular uh and being liked than you know enforcement and I try my best to find the balance and I was really good at it but then some people take advantage of your goodness so therefore now is then you got to go you know the other way and it's like why we are why we have to go there we're all adults you know we know what we got to do.

Erny Epley 36:52

One thing that I I wanted to to kind of touch sort of touch on is is a little bit introspective and it as it relates directly to this topic and this social media post that that sort of sprung everything up was one of the questions that that we you know one of our mirror questions was what who left because of me and right what was it my fault they left and while we were as we were going through this I I've really had like a had a struggle with like wow I I can't I can't find a single example is it because I'm just blind to this or am I not have I not considered that people could leave because of me like you know it's it's been this whole kind of the thing going through my head and as as I've tried to parse it out is like I do everything to to to to ensure to create a a an environment where people can succeed both on the good and the bad like I'm not a I'm not adverse or afraid to have these conversations the tough conversations and I'm very good at the positive conversations to the point of sometimes it feels disingenuous. So I got to tell the team like look I know I say this all the time but here's the data to back it up you guys are kicking ass and I just keep doing this right so go looking at that I'm like and am I have have people has has there really been a situation because people because left because of me right um I know if you talk to some people who we've had to dismiss they'll say oh yeah it's because of Ernie well I'm not the one who broke the law you know or I'm not the one who this that and the other I know you think it's me but I didn't make that decision right so so kind of parsing that out I'm I I really want to leave here uh from from this recording and really take a look at at this a little deeper to see to because the last thing I want to do is the blind leading the blind over here thinking that I'm just doing an a okay job and if they leave it's either a better opportunity or they screwed up really bad. You know there's there's got to be something in between where like maybe maybe it was me and I need I need to really think about that.

John Moore 38:55

I when you when you're saying that I also was thinking as well but then I I still pushed back and said I made sure training was there. I made sure team building was there I made sure that um you know as I said when I first met you guys love was there that I you made sure that they felt comfortable um my best friends they always say you know he's the one that gives the staff coach because I would give everybody coach stuff because that was me. That was the guy. And it is hard for me to find a place to say what did I do wrong except for holding them accountable, right? And that was what I did. I had to hold you accountable for something that you were you were supposed to be accountable for. Never was it for the simple fact that I just did it because I was malicious because I'm always putting myself in their shoes how would I want to be treated how would I want to be managed how would I want my manager or leadership to approach me. And I remember that so distinctively when I was given the opportunity over 20 plus years ago to become leadership that I always wanted to be different than what I was brought up in. Wanted to be totally opposite and I love that factor of it. So it is hard for me to say you know that now if it's a personality thing you didn't like you didn't like my locks you didn't like my glasses well you know keep on going with that.

Erny Epley 40:10

I I can't you know I have nothing to do with that but if it was something about my leadership I have never had anyone give me a feedback on it yeah say likewise I I've it's I've all in in like I said in in every situation where I've had folks leave it's either been uh you made this decision I have to hold the line somewhere and and 10 out of 10 times in my current business or my current industry you put kids in danger. That full stop you you do that there's no place for you behind the wheel of a school bus. So um yeah it's it's tough to to anyway sorry I you might want to cut all that out I'm just trying to think again just I'm stuck in this loop of man has there been or am I I I don't know that I'm that good you know I'm actually going to go to all the parts that you spoke and edit those out it'll just be a John and I episode again.

John Moore 41:02

Edit out. But you know what I don't think there's anything wrong where you can't find I mean it's not saying that we're perfect but it's not anything wrong with can't you cannot find uh a segment or a part now yes we can all improve yes but what if we're good leaders can be but it's also with exit interviews unless it's like egregious actions by leadership I feel like they don't always disclose oh I'm leaving because of John or I'm leaving because of Ernie.

Ryan Calkins 41:31

Like it has to be something that like you really did that forced them to leave. Yeah exactly but other than that it could just be like I mean Ernie's okay but he's not worth staying for yeah exactly or whatever it could be.

John Moore 41:43

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 41:44

But back to the the the ladies post it itself is uh like one person leaving doesn't really tell you much, right? But the whole premise was uh six months five people left or five months six people whatever it was there's multiple people left over a a time frame but that's still it it does warrant looking into it because it's still information but it doesn't mean that they're all leaving because of you there's it it's just information that it that is provided and turnover isn't good or bad it's just something that you can use as as a basis for of of reference.

John Moore 42:19

Here's where oh sorry good you think about it it could be where you have opportunities where people got into a job six months later the job doesn't match what they thought that it was literally literally it could have nothing to do with anything it's just not what they thought it was going to be period and I'm out. That's it.

Erny Epley 42:36

Yeah and one I wanted to say like I wanted to make this point from when I saw the post and I've forgotten till now but if there is five six people that leave in a matter of six months to a year or whatever it is that's not always a bad thing. Sometimes you have to come in as leader and recognize oh boy this this this this this and this and this are the problem and though all those this is have names you know you you have to it's not a point of okay I've been here for six months I know you're the problem GTFO you know that's not what but where I've come on the the two places where I have have come on board as as as management and within you know a year the department's drastically different as far as faces are concerned that's it's a net positive and I don't do it just as a one fell swoop just like all right everybody you're the problem get out of here it I always give that opportunity look this is the way the direction the direction we're going you either get on board or I don't know if this is the place for you. It's not gonna be you're not gonna feel fulfilled you're not gonna feel like you're making an impact and sometimes you do have to go in there and clean house so to speak and say look we got to get rid of all the dead weight around here we got to get rid of the the the the cancerous things that are just bringing this department down because Because of where you're at. So again, I'm not saying you gotta go, but you gotta change. And if you're not willing to change, then you gotta go. So again, five uh five people leaving in a matter of year could be a very overwhelmingly positive thing.

Ryan Calkins 44:12

So I got a question for you guys. The the post implies the leadership is measured by how many people leave, right? Under your leadership. And we've kind of established that that's not really the case. So what do you guys consider the measure of of good leadership?

John Moore 44:28

Consistent. Oh, excuse me. I thought you're gonna say the measure of why they left. Go ahead.

Ryan Calkins 44:32

So repeat the question. Sorry, Ryan. So the the post implies that leadership is measured by how many people leave under your command or whatever, right? So my question to you is we've we've talked about how that's not really the case and people leave for various reasons, but what would you consider the measure of good leadership?

Erny Epley 44:53

I I would say as far as as it relates to people leaving, a good leader, you look at those folks who were, I mean, look at the NFL and the coaching trees. Look at Bill, Bill Parcell's coasting tree, you know, name any famous coach. Those coaches that were under his tutelage that went on to be massively successful, right? They didn't leave their team because they couldn't stand Bill Parcell's, or maybe they could, right? Whatever reason. But a measure of success is hey, folks that have gone through my program, um, been part of my team and then have left and have done great things. I think that's a huge that's a that's a big factor to to that leads to that. I'm mixing up my words. I think that is a good barometer of great leadership, you know, because they what they took what they learned while they were on my team, and now they've now they've gone to head their own teams and they're killing it in the game and using a lot of things that they've learned here and they've then making it their own over there. So I think that's a that's a really good measuring stick of of a successful leadership.

John Moore 45:55

And I want to go to opposite. Um, where I would say an unsuccessful leadership will be the consistency in the feedback, consistency as to why people are leaving, because everyone can't be telling a lie, right? So if they're saying um six, five people are saying consistently it's because of John, it's how he talks or it's how he treats me or whatever it may be, and it's consistent. Well, then there's a problem there too, because it's consistently the same problem. And we're saying people are staggered, so we're not saying it's a whole group thing. We have one left, one, one left two months later, three months later, and they left stagnantly, if you will, stagnantly. Then yeah, that makes sense. It's it's it's that consistent feedback that makes sense that possibly it is the leadership. And I'll go on that direction because I I think that there are uh times where it is the leadership, but I just don't think it's primarily the leadership. I think that is a more uh it's a combination of all things.

Ryan Calkins 46:54

I guess I don't even necessarily mean like a reason that people leave as a that I mean, we're saying that that's not the the measure of good leadership. And I was just looking at leadership as the experience that people have when they're working with you or under you, because when that person leaves, if they're consistently saying, Oh man, I worked for this guy or I worked for this lady, that they always kind of you know hearken back to experiences that that they had and things that they learned. And that's that's the thing for me is I I I feel like impact that you have on somebody is a measure of of good leadership and then the things that they they take away.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

I agree. Yeah, I agree, totally agree. Cool. Well thanks for uh coming back, Ernie. It's good to see your face always.

Erny Epley 47:42

Good to see you, good to see you. Thank you. I I very much feel like uh someone who was gone for a long time and came right back home and didn't miss a beat. You guys this is this is great, and and I would like to do it again without as big a gap. And I know that's that's on me, mostly on Ryan, but some on me too.

Ryan Calkins 48:02

I just I couldn't bring myself to to face you so soon after after your abandonment. No, I'm just kidding. Um, so asking questions for for the audience, are are you learning from your turnover or are you just letting it accumulate? I mean, are you are you trying to investigate it and actually see what's happening? You're like, well, another person left. I don't care.

John Moore 48:24

Are you in the Oh, go ahead. Sorry. No, are you also assessing uh the leaving and and what is that that that purpose of leave? And are you really assessing it? Are you really taking note of what it may be, Ernie? Go ahead. No, I I was just cleaning my glasses out. Or no, close out too as well. What are your thoughts? Closing out to give to the people.

Erny Epley 48:42

Oh, uh yeah, don't don't always take it so personal. You know, uh it's easier said than done. But um, even if it is not so positive, you know, as long as you can look at yourself in the mirror and say, Hey, I did everything I could to make this work. And if it just sometimes it just doesn't work. And you gotta be, you gotta live with that and say, all right, I did the best I could, on to the next one. Absolutely.

Ryan Calkins 49:04

Speaking on that personal piece, one that we touched on before is are you keeping somebody right now because you're afraid to let them go to have it feel like it like a failure? So please like, subscribe, share with anybody that might be an up-and-coming leader, currently a leader. Until next week, leading ain't easy.

John Moore 49:24

But you don't have to do it alone.

Ryan Calkins 49:28

Thanks for tuning in to Leading Ain't Easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit ReframeRise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's Refraimerise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bus Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.