When Being Needed Becomes the Problem

Being the go-to person on your team feels like leadership until you're the bottleneck holding everyone up. Ryan Calkins and John Moore discuss how managers unintentionally train their teams to stop thinking for themselves, and what it takes to build a team that doesn't fall apart when you leave the room. For anyone who's ever felt like they can't take a vacation because nobody else knows how to do the work.

There's a version of leadership that feels great in the moment: being the person everyone counts on, the one with the answers, the one who gets it done. Ryan and John spend this episode being honest about what happens on the other side of that feeling: a team that can't function without you, and a manager who's now doing their own job and everyone else's too.

• Ryan and John talk through how the "quick answer" habit builds a team that stops thinking for itself over time, and how good it can feel to be needed that much
• They get into the difference between training someone to do it "your way" versus training the underlying process, and why that distinction matters when someone eventually replaces you
• Ryan shares a personal story from his time as an operations consultant, becoming the only person in the department who could run site visits and write the reports, and what he'd change if he could go back
• They talk through what actually happens when you try to take a vacation, and the person covering your work never does it
• Ryan and John discuss when stepping in actually makes sense (safety issues, new employees, an upset client) versus when it's just become the default
• They close with an honest question for anyone managing people right now: what keeps landing on your desk, and is it really because your team can't handle it, or because you've never let them try

"Leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone."

Leading Ain't Easy was created by Ryan Calkins and Erny Epley, and is hosted by Ryan and John Moore.

• Ryan is the founder of Reframe & Rise, where he works with veterans who transitioned successfully but still feel something's off; helping them find alignment, not just a better job title.
• John is a certified life and career coach with 20+ years of experience helping people navigate transitions, find purpose, and lead with intention — drawing on backgrounds in corporate leadership, counseling, and entrepreneurship.
• Erny runs Bus Pro Network, supporting school transportation leaders across California with training and development, and joins the show as an occasional guest.

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Transcript

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Ryan Calkins 0:00

Leading Ain't Easy, the show that cuts to the noise and gets real about leadership. I'm Ryan Calkins, Marine Corps veteran and founder of Reframe and Ride, and I'm here with my good friend and fellow leader, John Moore. As we unpack the highs, lows, and hard-earned lessons of what it actually takes to lead with character in today's world. It's not another highlight reel or fluffy leadership pep talk. We're talking about the stuff most people don't, the doubt, the pressure, the people problems, the pivot, and the personal growth that it demands. Because the truth is, leadership looks good on paper, but in real life, leading ain't easy.

John Moore 1:08

And also how you can help to create that deficiency by feeling good about being needed.

Ryan Calkins 1:14

So a lot of people talk about compliments as leaders where I don't know what I'd do without you, and it feels great, you know, but when people really don't know what to do without you, it creates a major problem that is very hard to dig out of once you've kind of created that culture within your team where people can't operate without direction.

John Moore 1:37

And I think that this is something, which is a very good topic. We might have alluded to it, but not as formal as we will today, that a lot of people look for this type of um gratification, awareness, uh accolades, whatever we want to call it, uh, because of their own self-lack in some areas, in some ways. And it just never really ends well, to be honest with you. It doesn't end well for the individual because they're overtaxed, and it doesn't do well for the team because the team does not know how to function without you. What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 2:07

I think it's true. And a lot of times you you put yourself in that position because as you, you know, rise the ranks, you get a wealth of knowledge and you understand everything. So people start to come to you and you are that person. And a lot of times it feels great to be that person. And when you don't allow other people to, I don't want to say think for themselves, because it's not like you're allowing them, you know, not the freedom to think, but everything is very prescriptive. And when they don't know something, they're not taking the time to figure it out. They're coming to you for the quick answer. You give them the quick answer so you can get it done quicker. And it just continues to build and create this problem to where when somebody, when you aren't available or you're not tied up, then things are are, I mean, when you are tied up, then things are stuck and they wait until you have eyes on it or you're able to, you know, give attention that that is it is needed in order to progress it.

John Moore 3:05

But I think you took back the word of let them think for themselves. I think that that's another thing that happens is they don't think for themselves because they lean so much into you until they just don't think at all. They even they don't even process a thought. They just go straight to you. And a lot of that is because the leadership has not empowered them with their own ideas, has empowered them with their own thought processes, um, hasn't set into a war room and just sat down and said, this is how we do it. Uh and that is reflective on the leadership. And it's possibly because, again, uh they like to be in the loop. One thing that I found that sometimes leaders will do is delegate, but they want to have every big idea or every big situation to be passed through them. But what she does is it also slows down the process. And so if it slows down the process, we're really not getting anywhere. And so what I find too is that people will say, we're not gonna make a decision because they're gonna wait on John. And then they're waiting on me in the next three, four weeks out. And it's like, why, why weren't well? We're waiting on you. What do you mean you're waiting on me? Well, you always want to know about blah, blah, blah, or you change, if we have an idea, you change it. And so hopefully that triggers the mind of that leader that says, you know what, I need to be allowed to be more independent of themselves. I need to be less in it and more allow them to do it. But it goes again, what does that leader really want from this job? Do they really want that dependence and that codependence?

Ryan Calkins 4:26

Well, I mean, it's even simple things like, you know, coming into a meeting that that you are in charge of, but you know, you're running late because you're in another meeting, you come in five to 10 minutes expecting people to be conversing and they're just waiting for you to come in and kick it off. And it's like, well, okay, how do I avoid this? So then I what I had to do was find somebody else that I could reach out to and say, hey, you know, if I'm running late, I need you to step in and run the meeting until I get there or something. Because if if you don't delegate somebody and put them as a point person, people just sit and wait.

John Moore 5:01

I agree. I also, for me personally, I would always start it from like the first thing that came to my mind when you're saying that from the interview process that I'm looking for people who can think independently, who will know how to take charge. I I need that because there needs to be a time where if I'm not there, you're gonna step up. And I I want to also make sure that I'm so transparent as to what I want, what I need, and what the department needs, what the company needs, that they would know how to function, you know, without me always being there. But again, it it leans back to that leadership. What do they really want at the end of the day? What is their goal? Is their goal to be the acknowledged and and not anyone else? So therefore they have to be on front. I don't know, but it really at the end of the day, it loses um a lot because of the simple fact that that person needs to feel like their hands need to be in everything.

Ryan Calkins 5:53

They do. And and and initially it it is, I want to say it is a good thing because it's you know, recognition, people see that you're willing to work hard, everybody comes to you, which feels great. And it is a a great feeling to know what to do and and be that person. But as soon as it becomes the problem where people, like you said, you know, people can't function without it, it becomes exhausting because not only are you doing your own work, you're making sure, I mean, obviously, as the manager, you still want to make sure that your team is doing what they need to do. But when they can't function without you, it's like, okay, well, now I'm doing my work and I'm doing their work, and I have all of this other stuff that I need to balance. And you just it it is absolutely draining.

John Moore 6:42

I I want to go back to your point about it feels good. I I know it does feel good, but I think it's I think it's I think what we have to do is we have to know when to pass the baton. When do we we we have that knowledge? Because I think I told you when my manager says the person who knows the most is the one that will stay or people will depend on the most. And and I've experienced that, but it also gets to a point where um who do we pass on the baton to if we're not preparing them, right? Who are gonna be, I think it's proper terms, who's gonna be the successor, who's gonna come after me, right? So it's like the motivation is don't set ourselves up to really fail because there's not gonna be anyone else after us, or there's not gonna be else anyone else that we can depend on. I mean, a prime example, if we go on vacation and and our vacation leans more into work, then there's no vacation because you're the only one that knows how to do everything or wants to do everything or has to be in control of everything, right? Uh, I really think it defeats the purse. So I agree with you that it does feel good, but I think it needs to be a point where it says, all right, now it's time for me to pass that on to someone else, or now it's time for me to share the light. What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 7:53

Well, it is. I think while while you were talking, I was kind of thinking about another struggle. And it's when you first get promoted, you have a tendency to hold on to what you used to do and the job that you did. And there's a reason you got promoted because a lot of times you were the best at what you were doing. And there's a tendency to move on. You have these new responsibilities, but you're also holding on to what you did because you were great at doing it. And I think a lot of people struggle with the training aspect. And, you know, you mentioned preparing other people, but it's also preparing other people before you even ascend to the next role and trying to get other people. Well, it's hard to do. I mean, it's hard to influence other people sometimes because the level of care and involvement and everything else varies from person to person. But the more that you can help others develop, the better it is for the team, for everybody else, but also for yourself. Because when you do get promoted, everybody already knows how you like it and what works. And that's actually that you know what? That's tough because I don't mean to say that in a way that that sounds cocky where you assume you're going to be promoted and you're trying to tailor everybody else to do it the way that you like it, because that will be a complete problem of its own. I think it's more just being consistent in what you're doing. So it's an easier transition to when you get to where you go, and then it's kind of prescribing to everybody else what things have done and putting them in position to grow.

John Moore 9:35

I think when it comes to training, you know, this is my expertise. I think that it's less of you and more of how it's supposed to be done, right? So whatever procedurally it needs to be done, you can always inject and saying this is how I've done it because it was convenient for me. But now that you're doing this, this is what you know you can do however you want to. But foundationally, you give them whatever those SOPs, whatever those policies and procedures are, that they do it that way. But there might be different ways that they may attack it or different ways in which they may do it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. But when you, to your point, when you say, well, this is how I do it, it needs to be done this way, well, you're gonna be gone. It doesn't matter as long as it gets done, right? And as long as you give them foundationally the way it needs to be done, you could have built your own technique because you were doing it for 10 years. Of course, you're gonna have a different and unique way of approaching it. But now here's someone else, they may have a unique and different way of approaching it and still get the job done. I think what's what's important for us to do is empower them to understand what needs to be done and that their approach can be their own singular approach, but just as long as we get it done, right? Uh, and even give some background as to why, you know, that that specification as to how you did it that way, why? You know, here were those nuances that occurred, here are those scenarios that occurred. They may very well follow that lead. Um, but maybe those nuances have passed because now it's 10 years. Hopefully we've grown and we've gotten better from them. So we don't have to do it that way anymore. Um, so I think it's important that the communication is there, the reasoning is there, the defining the why is there, um, but not just saying this is how I do it and I want you to do it. I think that that that could be a little limiting because they're like, well, okay, is there not another way of doing it? And you want to be able to empower someone else to be able to do it a different way with a standard foundation. What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 11:22

I agree with that. I that that's where I was I was trying to kind of backtrack on what I said and provide clarity. I I think you always want to have an open mind. And the point isn't to do it the way that you have been successful. What I was alluding to or trying to get to is sharing your experience and knowledge as a way to help others, but also being open to you know what what they are suggesting, not well, I'm gonna get here and now everybody's gonna do it exactly my way.

John Moore 11:54

Which yeah, sometimes people will be will be that way. Um another thing that we should talk about is persons who are subject matter experts, and they have the skill set to know how to do this. This is why everybody points them in a direction of training, right? That they are to do this, you know, training other people. But there's also an allusion to to that as well. I might be a subject matter expert, but am I a leader? Right? I know all the stuff, everybody comes to me. I am the resource, I am uh the person, but now someone wants to say, Hey, we want to promote you. You're talking about promotions that made me think about this. We want to promote you, but are we really leadership material?

SPEAKER_03 12:35

What do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 12:40

I feel like that is dependent on the person in the position to promote as well, because you may have your own preferences on what constitutes good leadership. And it may, you know, be completely different than my my idea of what good leadership is. And not to get too far off topic, but the way that I look at leadership, I look at personal qualities, the way that they treat people. Because the anything can be taught, right? But the way that you are, how you present yourself, how you treat other people is much harder to teach than a process or a procedure.

John Moore 13:23

And some people just come with the assumption that because they're so good with speaking to how they do, let's say it's one specific job or role, that they automatically assume that they could be a leader. And that's just not always the point. And I think that's why I bring it up is because um when someone is good at what they do, like what we're talking about, and they become that asset, that does not mean that that should just open up the doors to so many other things. What we have to also do is subscribe them to development, right? Subscribe them to different ways, different habits as to how they can improve and how they can be better. Uh, and then also, uh, which I think I leave the biggest piece out of it, do they even want to be a leader too? Because sometimes it's automatic. Oh, you do this so well, you're so great at it, everybody really depends on you. You should really have a team up under you. I could hear it. And it's like, okay. And that person is thinking, well, they think I can do it. So, and then you kind of set them up because you really didn't identify whether or not they would be good and and you didn't subscribe them, say, really, any leadership training or any evaluation at all.

Ryan Calkins 14:30

And a lot of times when when people get into the position and then they step up and they're they're struggling, they have a tendency to blame the team, right? And they're looking at, oh, well, they need to take more ownership, they need to think for themselves, they need to stop bringing everything to me. And they're not really taking the time to say, well, I kind of contributed to this environment of having people come to me.

John Moore 14:53

And liking it, actually, and and really appreciating that. I could see someone visually right now, after all the people coming in and it's like 50 questions, boom, boom, boom, and they're not, they can answer all of those questions, but then you're not empowering them to learn on their own and be dependent upon themselves to do things because a lot of the things that they may bring to you, you feel like these are reasonable decisions that they can make on their own. But if you've always been the problem solver, if you've always been the one with the answers, um, you know, that leads for the problem. But then what also I find funny is when you get tired of it, now you want to say, so how would you do that? It's like, okay, you've been doing this for two years, you've now created a culture. Now trying to ask them how would they discern or how would they then do this particular thing? You should have been doing that years ago. You know, so that therefore you brought them a part of the conversation, you brought them a part of the decision making. And again, it goes to the person who really likes to be that center. And that that's something that really can be a diminisher, I think. It can diminish their light because you could be a good light, but you also have to be one that shares the light.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

Like, what do you think about that?

Ryan Calkins 16:04

I think for me, it it was a little bit of a struggle at first because obviously you want to be quick with turning things around, right? And it's easier to jump in and help somebody rather than let them struggle and figure things out, or you redo their work when you get it rather than providing feedback and and you know kicking things back. And a lot of times you you don't have time to do that, but you also need to create space for that time to provide the training and the feedback and not just fixing it because you know, you give me something, I'm like, oh, this is shit. I'm gonna redo it myself, and then I never tell you that it was shit. I just push it through. So you have no idea, you know, and it's just it took me a minute to really evaluate what had developed under my supervisory uh capacity and to really say, you know what, I'm gonna kick this back to you, like my little red pin teacher notes and everything. Obviously, you never want to do it in a condescending way. Like you're not gonna write this is shit on it. Some people might, but I tried not to. It was more suggestions and and everything else, but really letting people struggle with something to the point that, yeah, if you absolutely need to step in at some point and say, look, I I realize you're stuck, we're not moving forward, this is what we're gonna do, blah, blah, blah. But more often than not, there is opportunity to just let somebody struggle and figure it out and come with a suggestion and give them an opportunity to fail.

John Moore 17:54

And I agree with you. I I look at it also a little bit different too. Um, when I come in, I'm very much observing uh everything, right? So I'm observing the level of knowledge and skill and seeing, you know, identifying, you know, looking at different people's files, whatever it may be, just to figure out who and what am I dealing with. And I give that about maybe 30 to 60 days, and I'm observing. And after that 30 to 60 days, I'm now probably in the 90th day time frame or whatever, I am now doing a either teach back, a train to trainer, or I'm doing a team building, right? Which is uh going over everything that I have seen that needs to improve, right? And so in that time frame, it really, because see, I don't want it to be, although I enjoy being the person with the knowledge, but I don't want to be overwhelmed with people coming to me and being codependent upon me because then I won't get anything done. And then my days are gonna be shot because I'm answering questions constantly, right? So I found that on the early part of my time being at any office, I've just said, let's get this done within the first 90 to 120 days of what I'm expecting, what I would like for them to do, what I would like for them to see. It has worked for me. Um I just don't let it, I just don't let it linger too long with them not knowing what was needed, to be honest with you, because I could just, I've seen it before where everybody's asking you the questions. I remember I was doing um a program for someone, and 50 people were coming at me all at once. And it was very daunting, very emotional. It wasn't even work work, it was a volunteer scenario, and it was very daunting. It's like, dang, so how do you learn from this? You got to make sure everyone has their own autonomy, their own knowledge of what they need to get done and be able to rock and roll. And since then, I've just always kind of approached things that way too.

Ryan Calkins 19:49

So when you're trying to balance the autonomy with the right structure and and set of information, how often do you go too far to one side?

John Moore 20:02

I'm really balanced with it, to be honest with you. I really am. I'm balanced with it to where I know what I need to know and I answer those questions, I'm still available. But then I also want you to know what you need to know, and let me know if I'm answering your question. Uh, I know what you need to know, I want you to know that, and I'm expecting you to have that understanding. And if you don't, I have an open door. I want you to come and ask me again. I never get to the point where we've already gone through this, we've already gone through this, because especially if you're just meeting me, it's gonna take time for you to understand what's required and what's needed. Um, but I do have an expectation that you are doing your own thing. You know, as corporate training, they have a lot that makes them very autonomous to themselves. They have their own calendars, they have their own classes that they teach, they have their own way about going in it in a structured way. So you don't want to have to have your hand in everything because it takes away their creativity, right? So that's one of the reasons that you have to be balanced because no one wants to be held in the constraint. I used to hate that when I first started training. You gotta read by the book, and all you did was read by the book, and it was like reading by the book is it's a bore. How are you gonna engage your people? So you had to figure out different methods and different ways to engage, and that means uh leans more into creativity. So it has to be a good balance to your point. There must be a good balance. There's a part that I'm responsible for, and there's a part when they're responsible for, and we have to know these things, and we also have to give them the ability to come to us to say, okay, I know we went over this, but I want to make sure totally 100. Have that support mechanism there. Um, and then there needs to be a time when they should just have it and they got it.

unknown 21:41

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 21:42

Yeah. I I I guess I was just getting at the it's great to have autonomy, but when you don't have clarity on expectations or what the person is actually seeking, it can also be a a massive time suck. And then you also end up, well, this isn't what I wanted. Now I have to do it myself. So the more clear you can be up front, the the easier it will be on you in the long run.

John Moore 22:05

I agree. And in the training world it's more repetition, to be honest with you. So the more and more we do it, meaning me saying it to them or showing them or they asking questions, that's how they also learn too, from a state of repetition.

Ryan Calkins 22:19

So once you Oh, go ahead.

John Moore 22:20

I'm not because they're doing the same thing basically every day until I bring on another curriculum that's assigned to them. So they're mastering it over a period of time. You got it, right? So you are literally doing it over and over again. You you build your own character, you build your own engagement, you build it, and you got it.

Ryan Calkins 22:38

So once you fall victim to the uh the competence trap and being the go-to person for everything, and you've created that dependency over a year, two years, whatever, how do you get out of it?

John Moore 22:54

Well, one of the ways you get out of it, well, I'm I'm being a little flip. One of the ways you get out of it is don't do it. You don't see it, right? You try your best not to go into those places, but there are a lot of us that do. And the motivation is that we have to be able to reverse it a little bit, but you have to do it, um you have to do it in a way where you're not putting it on the staff as if they did something wrong. It's more that you did something, uh, I don't want to say wrong, but you allow something to happen that shouldn't have happened. So we need to make sure that we turn that back around to where everyone is on the same level of confidence, everybody has the same level of knowledge, everyone is on the same page. Um, and again, it depends on that individual manager if they really want to do that, but usually they do because they get so overwhelmed that they can't do it all, right? So I think is I think to answer your question is honesty and is identifying your limitations um so that you are able to get out of that confidence track.

Ryan Calkins 23:52

Yeah, no, I I agree. I I think there is also the the idea that as a leader, I mean, obviously we're not arguing for refusing to help in in leadership. You just want to be selective in when you are stepping in to help, like when there's a fire or a crisis, or it's a safety issue, or you have a new employee that doesn't know the expectations, or they're within their first 90 days, or if it's a you know, pissed-off customer or client. Like there are times to step in and help resolve, but you want to make sure that it is situational when you step in and it's not the norm to where everybody is expecting you to step in. So they aren't doing what they could be doing or what they're supposed to be doing.

John Moore 24:42

Let's give some examples of what that may really look like. So um, the better you are by fixing things, you are more people come to you to fix it, right? An organization often reinforces it. You also have uh you always come through, Ryan, go to Ryan, he'll get it done for you. Uh, the other one is I'm reading, thinking about this one too, we need you on this. And and those words sometimes enhances the fact that's to why someone doesn't want to let go, right? And and those traps are not good in the long term. They may be good gratification in the moment, but they're not good on the long term. You cannot sustain doing everything on your own. I've seen people burn out, it's just not sustainable. It really isn't. So there's gonna come a time whether it's two years, whether it's a year, whether it's 90 days, where you're gonna have to find, I must share the load. But I say to you, viewers that are listening, that don't even get into that place. Like Ryan and Bogar are saying, is make sure that all your staff has the expectations that are needed for the role. And not only the expectations, but the policies, the procedures, the resources, the time, whatever it may be, so they can be good at their job. But if we don't give them that, it is then falls back on us, right? That we didn't do something the right way. And I think that's more important than anything else.

Ryan Calkins 26:00

Yeah, just kind of uh, I guess some some personal experience. Uh, when I was an operations consultant, there's a lot of other consultants, and we had a large spectrum of services that we provided from contracts and procurement all the way through solid waste operations, making sure that people are performing, you know, to the contract and everything in between. So I was the operations person and it was difficult because every analyst that I was receiving help from, they hated the early mornings and going out and observing, you know, site launches and everything else. And it was just such a pain to get people to leave the comfort of their desk. Where for me, it's like, I'm out of the office, this is great, like I love it. Even though the I'm not gonna say it was fresh air because it all smelled like garbage, but you know, it it was it was great to get out, but it was like fighting to get these people out of the office to do something else. And they, you know, they'd go back and complain or try to avoid helping on these projects. So I just got accustomed to doing it, you know, and it it became easier until I was responsible for all of the operational projects, to where it's like, okay, well, now I have to do all of this and I have no support. So, you know, bringing that concern to ownership and trying to get somebody hired that had operational experience was just a problem in itself, um, which is a subject for a different day. But I created my own problem by just doing it. And then it became such a problem to where not only was I the one going out and doing all the site visits, I had to do the reports because I'm the one that did the site visits. So now I'm the only one that could go out there because I had nobody else to conduct the site visits, but they have no frame of reference for writing a report on things that they didn't observe or have any knowledge about. So I was basically the beginning and the end of every single operations project that came through the door. And it it was very uh I just I screwed myself.

John Moore 28:18

Yeah. And that's what I was gonna ask you. How did that work for you? I mean, and then also to knowing what you know now, too, how did it work for you? Knowing what you know now, would you do it the same way, or would you find another way to engage them to then participate in the process that you guys had?

Ryan Calkins 28:38

I think I would have pushed harder to find that assistant that was more assigned to operations reviews rather than just allowing free-float analysts to hop into the project once in a while to help with data. Because when you're doing operations, you really need to know about the operation. Like it's it's easy to look at numbers, but when you have no context and why it matters, it makes it difficult in report writing. And I think having somebody that not necessarily had an operations background, but was assigned to that operations division that we had would have been nice because having a dedicated person that can learn the ins and outs would have it would have made it.

John Moore 29:26

Would have been a metaphor. And I think that again, that's a wonderful thing to at least acknowledge the fact that there was a different way of doing it. Um, and then again, you know, trying something different to engage them because I think it's important. Sometimes people don't know necessarily what they do know, but it's it's I think it's up to us to try to get them uh to really understand this is what I used to do when I used to train in default, uh default lending, believe it or not. Um, I would always define the why as to why they're so important to the bigger picture of things, right? And in your case, you know, I would have been like, why is this so important for them on a bigger scope? And it was so important for me to get the buy-in from them so that they would really be sold on the role that they need to do. Because I'm telling you, it's like if they're not in it, then they're never gonna be in it. And that's our role to make sure that we we get them vested and get them engaged. It's not only about this is your job, but it's how big of a part of your job you are in the big picture.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

Yeah.

John Moore 30:28

Yeah. It's just it's it is interesting how we get to a place where it's like, oh, I can do it faster than they can, or I'll just do it for them, and then that becomes a small scenario, but then it becomes this huge scenario, and it can happen so quickly. It can go from like a spark of a fire to then a whole forest because you know you're thinking your your objective is I can do it faster than anybody else, I can get it done because they've they got this on their plate, but at the same time, then you're overloaded. Did you see that in that time as well?

Ryan Calkins 31:03

Yeah, absolutely. And it I think I've talked about it in in prior episodes, but obviously it's it's more fun to do the fun stuff. But when you have the fun stuff that you're doing, and you're also responsible for the non-fun stuff that you're doing, and the hole that you dug for yourself because you have no support, or nobody else can do it because you've always done it, and it's it's quicker to step in and do it. And it's just having all of that on your plate and just the whole uh eyes are bigger than your stomach type of thing, where it's like, yeah, I can also take on these special projects on top of my normal work, but then when you don't have the resources and the help on your normal work, I know I'm getting a little bit into a different subject matter. It goes beyond delegation and whatnot. And I know that this is more focused on stepping in and not really letting people develop. It's just when you don't have the people to develop at times, it can also become problematic because they're like, oh, well, he gets it done. He doesn't need any other help.

John Moore 32:08

And that's the funny part too, because that is the conclusion that people start to think because you got it. Um, I was thinking while you were talking too, sometimes it's it's that we don't have budget for FTE. Sometimes we don't have the FTE to do it, right? Uh full-time employee. But at the same time, that's where that cross-training needs to come into play, right? So that again, we can share the load amongst everybody, right? Let's talk about some of the nuances real quick. Um, what do you think uh a nuance could possibly be in these types of scenarios and topic that we're talking about today? Give me a nuance you think could be.

Ryan Calkins 32:47

I think it it was partly what I talked about before is being selective in when you are choosing to step in and help and not have it be your default action. Um, but also not being completely hands-off and just watching everything burn from a penthouse.

John Moore 33:07

Exactly. And this is not an argument for leadership not to help. This is this is saying how does leadership share and bear the load with others uh and not just themselves, and not get into a culture of I'm the only one that can do this. But getting into a culture that I need to share the load, I need to be able to empower my staff. Um, yes, I know that they're doing this, but they also need to know how to do these things as well. What if I'm not here? And so those kind of things are very important. What do you think? You got can you think of another nuance?

Ryan Calkins 33:40

Well, I I was just thinking of an example. Um, when I went on vacation and nobody did my work because they couldn't. The person that was assigned to assist didn't at all. And I had the analysts that were on the project, because the project manager that was assigned to cover my stuff didn't do it. And she did it to me like four times and never did the work. Um, but was, you know, in the media, it's like, oh yeah, I'll do it. I'll I'll cover his workload looking like the hero and then not doing jack shit. But yeah, the analyst would contact me and I knew what was going on, so it's like I would take these calls on my vacation and help them get through everything. But if I could go back in time, I would have set them up to carry it and just had the project manager sit there, you know, whatever, but not actually expect it anything and set the analyst up to do the work in my absence and just to not be reliant. And I I think yeah, yeah, I would definitely go back and better prepare them to run the projects in my absence and serve as project managers when I was unavailable.

John Moore 35:02

Absolutely. And I think that's the wonderful thing about being in a situation like you have been, maybe I've been, that it's a wonderful learning experience because it's not in the moment, but it's it's one afterwards because you now see how we can do things better, how things should be done better. And I think that's important too, to your point. Another nuance like I thought about was leadership isn't standing back while the building burns. Uh, and I think that that's important too. We're not just sitting back just to say, well, let's see what they're gonna do. I think that it's important for us to, again, before there even there's a fire or a spark, we should be proactive, right? And that proactive approach about even knowledge, knowledge that they don't have, defining the why, whatever it may be, uh, empowerment, expectations, all should be done within a reasonable time so that therefore people know and expect to know something way, way beforehand. Um, but again, I reiterate this is not about an argument of the leadership just standing back and not helping. It's about how do we balance that load.

Ryan Calkins 36:04

Yeah. And just knowing that I mean, you just have to get to a point to where you're okay watching somebody struggle or watching somebody fail and learn from it.

John Moore 36:16

But not even to the point of failing, but I think even to the point, yeah, more struggling because the goal is to not let them fail, right? The goal is to, you know, you struggle a bit because you're trying to figure out your method, your methodology. And then hopefully you've opened the door for them or given them a comfort that says, come to me if you get to a point where you're stuck, and then we'll walk through it, right? Um, because we don't want them to fail. We don't. And sometimes people say that is the way someone learns, but some in this new world, that's not always the best way. But I do want them to figure it out as best as they can.

Ryan Calkins 36:51

I mean, I guess that's the level of fail that we're talking about. Like you don't want it to be so bad that a client or customer comes back to you angry because of the work that they received.

SPEAKER_03 37:05

Uh-huh.

Ryan Calkins 37:05

But I think a fail could be a report that you submit to me and I go through and I'm like marking everything that is wrong, and I send you back to the drawing board to do it over without telling you what you need to do, but telling you what's wrong with it and letting you figure stuff out. And if you have questions and ask me, oh, you know, what would you do? I'm happy to tell you. But what I don't want to do is fix it for you so you don't learn anything because I'm trying to avoid failure for the customer, if that makes sense. Like I obviously you don't want the end product to go out and blow up as a learning lesson for the person. But I think your critique in itself could be looked at as a failure because a lot of people, you know, they'll write something, they bring it to you, they're proud of the work that they did, and you're like, well, this isn't good.

John Moore 37:55

But then my my question to you would be, or to any leader out there, would we have given them the way that it was expected first? Then they came, you know, back to us and you know, had some errors on it and the name to correct it. Because see, I wouldn't want to just say, go do it, and they come back and then, like you were saying, have the red teachers' uh feedback on it. I want to be able to give them an expectation of what it should look like, the report specifically. And then if they've done some different things on it, say, hey, check this and check that, but everything else is great. Would you have given them that expectation first?

Ryan Calkins 38:28

Yeah, absolutely. So the at least the way that we operated, you would give, you know, prior examples of work that was done. And some of the problem that we would see is it would just be a cut and paste job in a lot of ways. So you go to read it, and there are references to different cities or counties. It's like, did you even read the work that you did? You know, so it's like, okay, well, I need you to take time and actually read what you're doing. And then there were other times where it was just like completely ignoring the example and they're bringing in something fresh, which is fine. But if it's so far off the mark that it becomes a problem, it's like, okay, well, you had a guide. Like, I'm free for you to update, you know, do whatever, add your own flair to it. But structurally, like, there's still things that we have to hit as part of this deliverable. So when you're missing it on one end from being lazy, or you're missing it because you're trying too hard to reinvent the wheel, like you have to find the right balance and set the expectations. Like, here is the example. There's multiple examples. These are the things that we absolutely have to hit and provide for. Within that, that's fine, you know, and people would come and they'd be creative, but then it's like, okay, well, this doesn't necessarily this doesn't actually tie to this, or or these marks are off. And it's just getting people to be more thorough in reviewing their own stuff and not expecting me to catch everything in a review that you could have done in an initial review yourself.

John Moore 40:01

Yeah, I think that's important too. There was something you were when you were saying that that came out too, and it just escaped my memory. But I totally agree with you. Um I find that sometimes people, oh, here, here it comes. They want to change it before they learn it. Yeah, absolutely. You see, they want to change the process. They want to, it's like, but you don't even know the process yet, you want to change it. It's like slow down. Can you learn it first before you want to change it? And so I find that that's hilarious too when you said that because it made me think about many a times where people want to just change it as they haven't even learned it yet. They haven't even been there, been there for 90 days and like I want to change this. It's like you don't even know it yet. How do you want to change something?

Ryan Calkins 40:41

Well, you you want to make your mark. No, I I when I first got there, uh being an operations pro I was the only operations person, you know, but I had no consulting experience, and I I didn't know the ins and outs of consulting and you know, providing your recommendations and everything. I just knew the operation and everything. So I would come with these clever ways. And the director that I was working for, he's like, he'd even write, like, stop reinventing the wheel, stop reinventing the wheel. And you know, he'd have marks all over and in all caps.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

I'm like, all caps, it's not necessary.

John Moore 41:16

Yeah, because he would stop like my god. But yeah, a lot of people get that, they get so excited, and it's like, slow down, sucker. It's you know, he's like, what are we doing? Can you learn this first? That's too funny. That's too funny. I I totally see that. Um you think you genuinely kind of wrapping it up? But where do you think you generally really need to be involved? We talked about this whole process. We talked about, you know, how people, you know, may have the self-gratification. We talked about, you know, the the outcomes of that. We talked about, you know, this is not an argument about leadership not helping. But when do you generally need to be involved?

Ryan Calkins 41:57

Um, well, I talked about it earlier, but uh safety is always number one for me, especially in operations. Like if there was a matter of safety, I would step in immediately, regardless. I think when you have new employees and people that don't know any better, you want to step in and make sure that you're training them right from the get-go. Um, when there's upset customers or clients or whatever, you want to handle that immediately. And if you do have to step in and aid somebody, do it. I mean, obviously you you want your the person that's paying you to be happy and satisfied. And I think uh when you have high-stakes projects or you know, it's it's already a fire that you're trying to help. Um that's when you would you absolutely want to step in. The other times it's more guidance with flexibility for people to learn and to struggle.

John Moore 42:57

Absolutely, absolutely. There's another one I was thinking about is how, I guess it's the question that we ask each other, and also we would ask our listeners, you know, how do you develop people? Or do you just make them really good at what they are using them? That that was something that was really interesting to me. How do you develop people, or do you just make them good, basically are good enough to use them? Yeah, no, that makes sense. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 43:24

Mm-hmm.

John Moore 43:24

And so we want to make sure that we don't use them, but we develop them. And when you develop someone, they then in turn are able to do the job like they're supposed to, not necessarily use them because when we use them, uh, I can use someone, and it's such an ugly word, but it's real. I can use someone, but they could never actually know. They could just be doing something in repetition and not really know how to solve, how to do, really have an understanding. Uh, one of the old kind of statements were uh it's like the cog and a wheel. I know how to put the cog on the Sims line, I had to put the cog in, but I don't know what the cog does before, I don't know what it does. After I just know my role. And we want to make sure that we develop our staff to know the before, the after, and the middle. So that they can be very useful to their job. And then we want to set them up on a career path that they're used for as the forward, not just the now.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

Yeah.

Ryan Calkins 44:18

Well, and and a healthy team shouldn't fall apart when the leader leaves the room. Like the whole point of leadership isn't trying to prove that they need you, but it's trying to build something that doesn't always require you in your and your input and allowing people the freedom to do.

John Moore 44:41

And get out of your own way. I mean, and get out of your team's way in a sense, because you need to allow them to grow. That is our that is our role as being leaders, is that we are to develop them. We are to bring them up. They're not going to be with us forever. We develop them to a level to where we should see them want to excel and do other things and greater things. But we should not hinder their growth. We should not hinder their career path, not for the sake of our own, uh, if you will, our own dem our own demise and what we would feel like is our own demise.

Ryan Calkins 45:15

Yeah. So a question for our listeners is really just think about what repeatedly comes to you or lands on your desk and what problems somehow always become yours. And is it because your team actually can't handle them or because you've never really let them?

John Moore 45:34

And are you in your own way or are you in your team's way? And if you find that you're in bulk, we need to reevaluate our approach, our structure, and we need to do better at it because the goal is to be a leader, not to be um anything different than that. As always, we enjoy having our time with you. If you uh would like to, please subscribe, please like. Uh, also give us comments. We would love to know more about you and know more about how you're enjoying our podcast and all that good stuff. So please like, subscribe. And and one more thing, we have to acknowledge uh Dolly Parton, which is an American icon, her passing, and we would like to give a shout out to her as well. Uh on her death. Unfortunately, uh, she's very loved and beloved. I know you weren't expecting that, but I'm a Dolly Parton fan, so no. Who who doesn't love Dolly?

SPEAKER_00 46:28

I love Dolly. I just didn't want to jump right into it until next week.

SPEAKER_03 46:34

It was okay, Dolly. We understand that. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

Well, I know. But then I don't acknowledge it and I just go right into a closing. Anyway, rest in peace, Dolly.

SPEAKER_03 46:44

Yeah, rest in peace, Dolly.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

We love you. Everything she's done. Until next week, leading ain't easy.

John Moore 46:50

But you don't have to do it alone.

Ryan Calkins 46:54

Thanks for tuning in to Leading Ain't Easy. If something in today's episode resonated, please do us a favor and share it with someone else who leads or aspires to lead. Because honestly, none of us have this figured out, but we can all get better together. If you're a leader or professional feeling quietly stuck in your career, visit ReframeRise.com. It's a career and leadership coaching firm where I work with veterans and other high achievers to realign their work and lead with purpose. Again, that's Reframerise.com. And if you're looking for leadership tools, training, or support for your transportation department, check out Bust Pro Network, where Ernie helps school transportation leaders across California build safer, stronger teams. Please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and let us know what topics you'd like us to tackle in the future. And remember, leading ain't easy, but you don't have to do it alone.